Amsoil = 35000 miles without bypass filter

troy_heagy · May 21, 2003

TROY: "I was looking at your 35,000 mile extended-drain oil. In order to go that far without changes, do I need a bypass filter?"

AMSOIL: "Nothing additional is required to achieve our published service intervals except filter changes."

I don't believe it.

BOBISTHEOILGUY · May 21, 2003

Troy, Were did this come from? Is this a statement made on this board? If so, post the thread so we can see what the whole story is instead of just this little comment. Thanks.

buster · May 22, 2003

quote:

I don't believe it

Don't believe it. If Amsoil wrote this, it is a disgrace that they would say something so stupid. S2000 is the most over rated oil IMO. Amsoil needs to wake up and stop making FALSE claims. Unless someone wants to cut there engine life short, no one should be running ANY oil unless it's a diesel oil with bipass filter for 35k miles or 1 year. From what I've seen Schaeffer's holds it's TBN better then Amsoil does in extended drains. There is so much hype to certain brands.

[ May 22, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

troy_heagy · May 22, 2003

Here's a follow-up:

.

From: [email protected]
To: "'Troy Heagy'"
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:10:32 -0500
Troy,

Who did the analysis? What was the engine condition? What is the mileage? Was their glycol present? Is there an emissions problem causing nitration? Can you explain that? Seems to be a whole lot of missing info. The testing methods we use are ASTM certified and can be duplicated in ANY lab using these methods. (with maybe the exception of Blackstone who uses 1940's technology). We have not seen this oil. Unless this is just hearsay we sure would like to see a sample.

Thank you.

-----Original Message-----
From: Troy Heagy
Oil analysis of Amsoil shows 15,000 miles max. Your website claims 35,000 miles. Can you explain that discrepancy?

--- [email protected] wrote:
> Nothing additional is required to achieve our
> published service intervals
> except filter changes. The service life of our
> AMSOIL SDF Oil Filters in
> gasoline engines is 12,500 miles or six months,
> whichever comes first.
> Non-AMSOIL filters should be changed at the
> manufacturer's recommendations.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> I was looking at your 35,000 mile extended-drain
> oil. In order to go that
> far without changes, do I need a bypass filter?
>
> I am a customer
> checkbox

[ May 23, 2003, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: troy_heagy ]

Spector · May 22, 2003

WOW!!!!

(with maybe the exception of Blackstone who uses 1940's technology).

Love to hear what Blackstone has to say about this statement????????

3 Mad Ponchos · May 22, 2003

Heh quite the slap in the face there. In Pablo's four-way comparo, Amsoil's lab didn't show any clear advantage over Blackstone. If Blackstone uses 1940s technology, then the state of the industry must not have advanced much in 60 years.

Cheers, 3MP

Mike_dup1 · May 22, 2003

quote:

The core business of the AMSOIL laboratory is research and development testing, as well as process quality control. In 1996, as a peripheral service for its customers, AMSOIL expanded its laboratory operations with the creation of Oil Analyzers Inc.

As the oil analysis industry grew, so did the volume of oil samples being submitted to Oil Analyzers Inc. and the sophistication of used oil testing. Equipment companies have developed new, faster and more accurate used oil analysis testing equipment. Computer programs and database management systems have improved greatly since 1996, and customers now need faster service with electronic reporting.

To deliver these modern services to our customers, Oil Analyzers Inc. elected to contract the services of an independent laboratory that specializes exclusively in used oil analysis. This firm has extensive experience in used oil testing for the industrial, commercial, manufacturing and consumer automotive sectors. It' skilled staff provides fast quality service and specializes in Internet reporting.

Today, the Oil Analyzers testing service and capabilities are better than ever, with specialized Internet reporting that improves the response time and allows you to manipulate your data. Customers benefit because their samples are being tested with the most modern equipment and because the reports generated are monitored by the same people here at Oil Analyzers Inc. Oil Analyzers maintains a complete database of your information. At Oil Analyzers Inc., you get a full-time, certified technician who can answer your questions and provide technical advice. The professionals at Oil Analyzers Inc. insure you get accurate timely reports, with follow-up in critical cases. The only difference you'll see is that your samples are sent to another location. That's it.

Pablo · May 22, 2003

Troy - while I find your question to Amsoil incorrect (the oil can and does go beyond "15,000 miles" max) I find the Amsoil answer starting off OK...Those ARE legit questions (you didn't post your backing data)....The comment about Blackstone is totally out of bounds and the guy that wrote it is unprofessional at best and should be demoted at the very least. I'm quite embarassed, actually.........I will let Amsoil know.....

buster · May 23, 2003

quote:

while I find your question to Amsoil incorrect (the oil can and does go beyond "15,000 miles" max

You may be right Pablo, but I havn't seen it yet.

Pablo · May 23, 2003

We have not seen it here - but it does happen. IT is RARE - one reason? Who the heck drives 35K in one year??

buster · May 23, 2003

quote:

IT is RARE - one reason? Who the heck drives 35K in one year??

True. I'd be afraid to even attempt it.

turbochem · May 23, 2003

LOL...you only have to put 95.8 miles on your car every day.....that's all.......

Patman · May 23, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by turbochem:
LOL...you only have to put 95.8 miles on your car every day.....that's all.......

When I win the lottery and buy myself a C5 I'll put that kind of mileage on it every single day, probably doing it in just one hour too.

troy_heagy · May 23, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:
Troy - while I find your question to Amsoil incorrect (the oil can and does go beyond "15,000 miles" max)

I reviewed the Used Oil Analyses and found that the oil rarely lasted >15,000 miles. Of those persons who went for longer drains, I noticed two things:

(a) the oil turned to crap
(b) the oil held up but *with* a bypass filter

Letter (b) is the reason I originally asked, "Do I need a bypass filter to go 35,000 miles?" I was surprised when the Amsoil Tech said no! The analyses simply don't support it.

Troy

[ May 24, 2003, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: troy_heagy ]

Pablo · May 23, 2003

Troy - one important point: BiTOG is NOT the world. In fact it is very tiny fraction of the world.

I, for one, went 20K miles on a 25K mile oil. It took me just over a year - and I only did that because of special situation in my life that required the driving. I prepped the car for this interval and made sure it was running clean. The oil was indeed beat - what did you expect? (That expectation of yours seems strange) But the engine was NOT worn.

Now one thing I KNOW you are not aware of and I fault the Amsoil tech. guy for not pointing it out. Amsoil only has one oil and one condition they recommend 35,000 miles on. Then they have a couple oils in one condition that are 25K. The rest are less. Amsoil publishes a table of oils and conditions need for extended intervals and guess what? The majority are NOT 25K, and as I said only one 35K. A lot of them say 6 months or use oil analysis.

That said - Amsoil does hype and market the extended OCI way too hard, and as if it is just butt simple. The way you ask the question tells me that. They need to a) tone down the hype b) come up with better preparation instructions c) improve the oil

As to point c); yes Amsoil is good, and it is a top tier oil, however it needs an even better additive package. I think it does have some weaknesses in oxidation and hence TBN retention. Their chemists know this weakness doesn't immediately result in high wear numbers with extended drains, but the oil could be better, that's all.

Spector · May 23, 2003

Problem is that no one can define a good generic oil analysis result? Amsoil OAI, could say that after 15,000 miles a TBN of 4 is fine keep going, many on this board would say oil is shot. If we went to 25,000 on the same oil and the TBN was 2 did our engine suffer premature wear by going the extra 10,000, did wear increase at a higher rate in the last 10,000 or wsa it at the same rate. Thus, 15 ppm of iron at 15,000 miles OAI would probably say that 25 ppm of iron is perfectly fine at 25,000. Wear rate is the same.

OAI I think is one of the few that looks at extended drains and the rates of wear as opposed to Analysts Inc (more of a percentage change with them) and Blackstone (which I think is the most conservative) Blackstone can and does use dino and synthetic results when calculating their universal averages for wear.

There are so many variable. The key is will the engine die sooner if we push that oil to 25,000 with what we may consider high wear numbers and a low TBN or will it be around as long as if we had changed the oil at 15,000.

Thus, we cannot prove Amosil wrong (although I would not push any of their oils beyond 12,000 without analysis and only if I drove 90% highway miles) nor can we prove ourselves correct and say their oil will not hold up that long. The two or multiple engine comparisons do not exist to make a conclusion IMO.

As the LS1 test is showing with the Mobil 1 the TBN and wear numbers can actually bottom out at a reasonalbe number and the TBN rise slightly over time. We just do not know.

Pablo · May 23, 2003

Wow Spector look at the timing and the agreement

Your first para is basically what I am saying in my diatribe.........

buster · May 23, 2003

quote:

They need to a) tone down the hype b) come up with better preparation instructions c) improve the oil

As to point c); yes Amsoil is good, and it is a top tier oil, however it needs an even better additive package. I think it does have some weaknesses in oxidation and hence TBN retention. Their chemists know this weakness doesn't immediately result in high wear numbers with extended drains, but the oil could be better, that's all.

Pablo, your the man. The fact that you say this being a Amsoil rep. is great. I agree with you 100%. I think they would take less flack if they marketed it as 12-15k mile oil. It would be a harder sell because there are other oils that can go this far, but at least it would be more credible.

[ May 24, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: buster ]

troy_heagy · May 23, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:
I, for one, went 20K miles on a 25K mile oil... The oil was indeed beat - what did you expect? (That expectation of yours seems strange)

In your opinion my expectation is strange.

In my opinion, if Amsoil says "35,000 mile oil" than that's what I expect to happen. Instead, oil analysis shows 15,000 max. 20,000 if you're willing to risk TBN=0 and the resulting damage.
.
.
.
Based upon the used oil analyses I've seen of Amsoil's Series 2000, I don't see how that oil can go 35,000 miles without a bypass filter, which brings us back to the FIRST message in this topic:

TROY: "I was looking at your 35,000 mile extended-drain oil. In order to go that far without changes, do I need a bypass filter?"

AMSOIL: "Nothing additional is required to achieve our published service intervals except filter changes."

I simply don't believe it. The UOA data doesn't support it.

troy_heagy · May 23, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:
That said - Amsoil does hype and market the extended OCI way too hard, and as if it is just butt simple. The way you ask the question tells me that. They need to a) tone down the hype b) come up with better preparation instructions c) improve the oil

I agree with (a) and (b).

(a) Reduce the interval to 15,000 like Red Line.

(b) Leave the interval as is, but point out you need a bypass filter to reach it.

Amsoil = 35000 miles without bypass filter

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