All Amsoil gas engine oils now ACEA, A3/B3/B4 rated

[TooSlick]

The Amsoil 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30 are all now ACEA A3/B3/B4 rated, for high performance gas/diesel engines. The new spec sheets aren't on the website yet, but the quart and gallon bottles have had the new specifications on them for the past two months. These formulations also meet factory fill requirements of BMW/Mercedes 229.3/Porsche, and VW 502/505. The only Amsoil gas engine formulations not meeting these specs are the XL-7500 series oils. These are formulated about like Mobil 1 in terms of high temp viscosity, and are SL/CF and ACEA, A1/B1 rated products. TooSlick Dixie Synthetics

 

[G-MAN]

Is this more of Amsoil's "Recommended for applications requiring A3/B3/B4" stuff? That's not same thing as passing the tests necessary to secure the acutal ACEA rating.

 

[TooSlick]

G-ManII, As you may know, the ACEA specs are "self certifying"....That means if you claim ACEA performance you have to keep the documentation on hand that shows your formulation meets these tests. Amsoil works very closely with Lubrizol in developing these additive chemistries and they also work with European vehicle manufacturers such as VW up in Michigan to ensure they meet the particular OEM specifications. If the application calls for an ACEA A3 or B4 rated oil, one of these formulations will work very well. I have personally used Amsoil in VW/Audi engines since I was in graduate school back in 1980 with extremely good results - typically with drains of 12k-15k miles. I'd estimate I have perhaps 400,000 miles of personal experience with the product in this motors. TooSlick

 

[buster]

These tests don't mean much of anything. If you look at some of the other oils that meet these specs., you'll realize Amsoil is better then 99% of the oils on the lists. Especially the Mercedez approved oils.

 

[G-MAN]

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Originally posted by buster: These tests don't mean much of anything. If you look at some of the other oils that meet these specs., you'll realize Amsoil is better then 99% of the oils on the lists. Especially the Mercedez approved oils.

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Really? And just how would one "realize" that Amsoil is better than 99% of the ACEA spec oils?

 

[buster]

Really. I say this bc it is common knowledge that Mobil 1, Amsoil and Redline are the top tier synthetics. Amsoil is half PAO from Mobil as you know, with additives from Lubrizol. Castrol, Quakerstate and others are really not in the same league, generally speaking. I'm not knocking the other oils but lets face it, they are not in the same category. G-Man, why does Amsoil bother you so much? The main point was that as Slick has pointed out before, most of these are just "buy ins" from big oil companies. I bet many other oils meet these specs. too. [ February 17, 2003, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[G-MAN]

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Originally posted by buster: Really. I say this bc it is common knowledge that Mobil 1, Amsoil and Redline are the top tier synthetics. Amsoil is half PAO from Mobil as you know, with additives from Lubrizol. Castrol, Quakerstate and others are really not in the same league, generally speaking. I'm not knocking the other oils but lets face it, they are not in the same category. G-Man, why does Amsoil bother you so much? The main point was that as Slick has pointed out before, most of these are just "buy ins" from big oil companies. I bet many other oils meet these specs. too.

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I think you're confusing ACEA specs with individual European carmaker oil requirements. These are not the same thing. And there are a lot of oils that meet the ACEA specs. As for other oils not being in the same category with Mobil 1, Red Line, and Amsoil—I take issue with that. Those may indeed be the "top tier" synthetics that are made in the US, but there are some excellent synthetics made in Europe. Castrol's European synthetics don't have anything in common with what Castrol sells here, other than the name. Fuchs, Agip, Elf, Total...these are all "top tier" European oils that you won't find in the US. That doesn't mean they aren't any good, or couldn't hold their own with the oils you consider top tier.

 

[TooSlick]

Buster, I'd say most of the top tier synthetics available in Europe are better than most of the off the shelf, Group III synthetics available in the US. In fact, aside from Mobil 1 and Royal Purple, most of the $4.00-$5.00/quart synlubes sold in the US are very average. Drain intervals in Europe are currently in the 12,000-18,000 mile range, using ACEA A3/B4 quality oils - and European drivers actually run these long drains. So these oils have to be better or you'd see quite a few engine problems. I do think that Amsoil and Redline are at least as good as any synthetics being sold in the European market. Amsoil sources some of their raw materials, like their VI modifers, from European suppliers such as Royal Dutch Shell, so they are very aware of the Euro synthetic scene ....Lubrizol is a global company and sells their additive chemistries to European oil manufacturers. TooSlick

 

[G-MAN]

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Originally posted by TooSlick: I do think that Amsoil and Redline are at least as good as any synthetics being sold in the European market.

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And I do think that Mobil 1 is at least as good as any synthetics being sold in the European market, especially since every grade sold here either meets the A3 or A5 spec. And the 0w40 meets the toughest PCMO specs from the API, the ACEA, is GF-3 compliant, and meets the toughest MB 229.5 spec, the BMW Longlife spec, and the GM European Longlife spec. No other motor oil on the planet meets all these specs.

 

[wulimaster]

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Originally posted by G-Man II:

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Originally posted by TooSlick: I do think that Amsoil and Redline are at least as good as any synthetics being sold in the European market.

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And I do think that Mobil 1 is at least as good as any synthetics being sold in the European market, especially since every grade sold here either meets the A3 or A5 spec. And the 0w40 meets the toughest PCMO specs from the API, the ACEA, is GF-3 compliant, and meets the toughest MB 229.5 spec, the BMW Longlife spec, and the GM European Longlife spec. No other motor oil on the planet meets all these specs.

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Actually, that last line may or may not be accurate. It implies that all the other motor oils paid to have all those tests done and didn't pass them all. All that can be inferred is that Mobil paid to have all the tests done and passed them.

 

[Patman]

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Originally posted by TooSlick: Buster, I'd say most of the top tier synthetics available in Europe are better than most of the off the shelf, Group III synthetics available in the US. In fact, aside from Mobil 1 and Royal Purple, most of the $4.00-$5.00/quart synlubes sold in the US are very average. Drain intervals in Europe are currently in the 12,000-18,000 mile range, using ACEA A3/B4 quality oils - and European drivers actually run these long drains. So these oils have to be better or you'd see quite a few engine problems. I do think that Amsoil and Redline are at least as good as any synthetics being sold in the European market. Amsoil sources some of their raw materials, like their VI modifers, from European suppliers such as Royal Dutch Shell, so they are very aware of the Euro synthetic scene ....Lubrizol is a global company and sells their additive chemistries to European oil manufacturers. TooSlick

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Ted, what do you think of the german made Castrol 0w30 that I've been talking about here: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001495 The specs look amazing, and this stuff is becoming readily available at Walmarts in Canada. It looks to me to be a better built oil than Mobil 1! Castrol would be wise to not only start bringing this stuff into the US too, but to also bring some of it's 0w40 and 5w40 PAO oils there too. They've sold overpriced group 3 stuff here for years, but now is their chance to really make up for lost time.

 

[dragboat]

Patman, Although you adressed the question to...Tooslick I think a data sheet does not make a oil. It would have to be ran in your motor with you driving style/intervals to see if the Castrol is better than the Mobil,,granted I like the higher VI @ 100c this oil has not reinvented the wheel IMO I think though that is tells "me" Castrol finally has a 5 buck a quart oil that dragboat might use but I have no reason to hunt it down when Mobil and Amsoil is so easy to find and purchase. When a guy goes to these Euro sites read between the lines when they have a long drain spec oil that more or less says to be used in long drain type motors. Ultimatley the engine design will stop long intervals in some cases so I am saying for the most part a exotic killer oil might not be better than a seemingly lesser oil. I put my money on the Mobil and Amsoil for now as best oil for the buck in the synlubes available in the USA. I would like to see you get some of that oil,I would be interested in seeing a back to back analysis of it against another oil ran in the same ambient in the same car but that will take a year to do so in Canada.The only way I see it can be done is to run from earlt spring till mid summer,then change until late fall but the miles might not be up there to quanitfy if it's any better than the next oil @ 6k for example. [ February 18, 2003, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[TooSlick]

Patman, The Castrol SLX is generally well regarded, but I don't think that's the product they are importing to Canada. I believe the SLX would be significantly more expensive than the garden variety Syntec - more along the lines of $6.00 US per quart. The ACEA, A3/B4 stuff you are now seeing looks more like the factory fill oil that VW is using, which is a good PAO/Ester based formulation. This oil would be similiar to Mobil 1, but would be about midway between the Mobil 1, 5w-30 and 0w-40 in terms of high temp viscosity. I've been using and selling mostly 0w-30 for the past eight years, so I do think that the thinner, 0w-20/0w-30/0w-40 synthetics are the way to go for most new engines. In that respect, I have been somewhat disappointed in the Mobil 1, 0w-30, which does not seem to hold up as well as their 10w-30 grade. The Mobil 1, 0w-40 is probably their best long drain formulation, but it shears a bit too much for my liking. So I'd be interested to see some long drain tests of this thicker Castrol Syntec oil, which I do think is better than the Group III stuff they have been selling for the past 4-5 years. Ted

 

[FowVay]

Ted, since the ACEA B4 rating requires the specific piston ring sticking test be conducted using a direct injection Volkswagen Turbo diesel engine, do you believe that Amsoil actually did the test? I know that you're saying that they're buying their additive package which has passed other tests but if i'm not mistaken they're still required to have the results of the cec L-78-T-99 (I'm not 100% certain this is the current test) on file for ACEA certification. If Amsoil did the tests, can you possible find out what the results were? Since the top piston ring is very critical in the TDI and the ACEA test provides a maximum ASF of 2.5 then I'm curious what numbers the Amsoil 10W-40 (the oil that I have previously used in my TDI) delivered. Also, I believe you may have misquoted the application in your original post. The ratings that you listed are most likely for "Service" fill requirements and not "Factory" fill requirements. Most factory fill requirements are proprietary and are rarely divulged.

 

[G-MAN]

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Originally posted by TooSlick: The Castrol SLX is generally well regarded, but I don't think that's the product they are importing to Canada. I believe the SLX would be significantly more expensive than the garden variety Syntec - more along the lines of $6.00 US per quart. The ACEA, A3/B4 stuff you are now seeing looks more like the factory fill oil that VW is using, which is a good PAO/Ester based formulation.

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Until Patman e-mailed me the German spec sheets, I would have agreed with you. However, one of the spec sheets they sent is of the SLX that was developed in conjunction with VW/Audi. It shows clearly that this 0w30 is in fact an A5 oil with an HTHS of 3.0. We are left, then, with two options as far as what the 0w30 is that's being imported to North America: It's either the A3 0w30 SLX, or Castrol is blending a unique 0w30 in Germany for import to North America. My guess is that the most cost effecient approach was just to rebottle what they were already making rather than come up with something new.

 

[TooSlick]

Fowvay, The Amsoil 10w-40 is an ACEA, A3/B3 and VW 502/505 rated oil, along with having the CI-4 additive chemistry. The CI-4 additive chemistry is much more robust than the light duty diesel rating, so piston cleanliness is going to be excellent. The same holds true for Mobil Delvac 1 - even though the latest version isn't specifically ACEA, A3/B4 rated, I'd have no quams about using it in a TDI or high performance gas engine. I should add that the best Amsoil product for the TDI is still their Series 3000, 5w-30 - I'd run that even down here in Alabama. The info you are looking for is not easy to come by, but I can probably get you a general answer in terms of the Amsoil 5w-30/10w-40/15w-40 diesel oils and how they perform in these tests .... BTW, it's hard for a 10w-40/15w-40 grade to be ACEA B4 rated, since you have to show a fuel efficiency improvement of at least 2.5% over a 15w-40 reference oil as part of the spec. Ted

 

[buster]

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Mobil and Amsoil for now as best oil for the buck in the synlubes available in the USA

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I'm going to run Mobil 1 0w-40 out to 10K + miles, followed by 10W-30. I want to start testing M1's extended drain capability. I read on there web page how M1 has reserve capability but most will never use it. Well, now it's time to test it. Maybe even to 15k. I'm left with one qt. of S2000 which won't allow me to go past 10K miles so I can't push it this time. I didn't realize that European high end synthetics are better. Thanks for informing me though. It's interesting how the European formulations are geared for longer drains. This is one of the main reasons why I'd like to test Mobil's 0w-40. Slick, would you run 5w-40 delvac in a 4cyl? I'm thinking summer.... [ February 18, 2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Malibu]

Buster, if you go to Toyotas website and check out the FAQ it says this: "All Toyota vehicles come from the factory with natural petroleum-based engine oil. In our high mileage tests petroleum-based oil has provided excellent service. If you decide to use synthetic oil for the engine, it is best not to switch until the first scheduled oil change. Even if synthetic oil is used, we DO NOT recommend a longer oil change interval. Also, once synthetic oil is used, you should keep using it and not switch back and forth with natural petroleum-based oil."

 

[TooSlick]

Malibu, I run 15,000 mile drain intervals in my 1995 Tacoma pickup with Amsoil and oil analysis shows very low wear rates and plenty of detergency to keep the engine clean - TBN on changeout has been about 7.0. I have 60k on the motor and it is spotless inside. Iron wear has been constant @ 2 ppm/1000 miles of use. I've been doing this since 1978 - about 500k miles -, so I feel pretty comfortable about it. TooSlick

 

[buster]

Malibu, I really don't think any manufacturere will recommend longer drain intervals. In fact, I know they won't. With a good synthetic, you can go longer then dino oil on changes. Slick, you touched on something I've been curious about. You said at 15k miles there was still decent detergency to keep the engine clean. How long does the detergency last? Is this something that is related to TBN?