Alec Baldwin and Gutierrez-Reed will each face two counts of involuntary manslaughter

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There should be ONE person responsible for weapons safety on a movie set, and that person is the armorer. Actors can't be relied upon so we have that specialized job.

They should do a safety brief before the scene, show everyone how the gun is empty (or loaded with blanks, as appropriate) then not let the gun out of the armorer's sight until the scene is done. If the actor starts messing with the clip or anything else for a reason outside of the script, the armorer should shut the production down for a safety violation.

One. Person.
 
And don't forget, initial reports indicated that armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed was barely qualified for the job. The entire crew was hired on the cheap. You get what you pay for.

Would you trust this face to make sure a firearm was unloaded, ready for someone to put it to your head and pull the trigger? I know I wouldn't.

Scott

Gutierrez-Ree.jpg
 
There should be ONE person responsible for weapons safety on a movie set, and that person is the armorer. Actors can't be relied upon so we have that specialized job.

They should do a safety brief before the shoot, show everyone how the gun is empty (or loaded with blanks, as appropriate) then not let the gun out of the armorer's sight until the scene is done. If the actor starts messing with the clip or anything else for a reason outside of the script, the armorer should shut the production down for a safety violation.

One. Person.

I disagree and so does every professional in the firearms community. A child can be taught safe firearm handling, and how to inspect the condition of a firearm. I think it's not too much to expect an actor to know how to safely handle a firearm. Ultimately the END USER is the responsible party. And in Baldwin's unfortunate case, he's no rookie. I think dozens of film credits handling guns. He has the knowledge, experience, and money. He could have personally hired a 2nd professional to stand by his side at all relevant times to ensure safety. He's in deep water IMO.

Allow me to illustrate. The armor on Rust could have been having a bad day and negligently loaded the gun. Heck, the armorer could have purposely loaded it as a joke or for more nefarious reasons and lied to Baldwin about the status. It was Baldwin, ultimately who:
1. Did not inspect, or even ask the armorer to prove it was unloaded
2. Aimed
3. Cocked
4. Fired

Had Baldwin changed any of those 4 variables, no shooting death. The gun would have been dangerous but no death. Baldwin had numerous chances to alter this outcome.

ETA: It should be noted that none of the 4 suggested actions by Baldwin are particularly difficult. Inspecting the gun might have taken 30 seconds, maximum. Having the armor stand there and prove the status would have been effectively effortless. The other stuff, no effort or costs involved to follow the rules of gun safety. In effect, the costs to follow gun rules are minor to zero, but the consequences of ignoring include death and prosecution and lawsuits into bankruptcy. There literally is no justification for this death on this film setting.
 
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You're incorrect and everything else being posted right now does not matter. We are talking law here, not rules, no this person should have, could have, would have or anything to do with tires on a car *LOL* come on already, read the meaning below, cut and dry.

Maybe this will help you and everyone else =

"The first type of involuntary manslaughter occurs when a defendant recklessly or negligently commits an act that results in the death of another person. Recklessness usually means that the defendant was aware of the risk that they were creating, while negligence usually means that the defendant was not aware of the risk but reasonably should have been aware of it."

You and anyone unclear of the meaning can click below-
involuntary-manslaughter

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Look...I was just looking for clarification because I'm not a lawyer and I know, outside the legal definition, the ****ing antonym of accidental is intensional.
 
Where did I ask about involuntary or reckless? I was asking someone who posted that this was not accidental if they really felt it wasn't accidental?
Why so defensive PWMDMD? I was not disputing your assertion that this was accidental, not intentional. I was merely explaining the accepted legal definition of what he is charged with. And that definition can include what you would describe as an accident.
 
Having been trained at age 4 about gun safety...don't touch them, bolt out, lay them on ground when crossing fences, never point them at something you dont want to destroy. (Stopped a suicide at age 6, when I found my Dad in the shed violating multiple)....then being able to handle and use at age 12....

1996 a journalist friend took umbrage that I wouldn't pose a photo of here photographing up the barrel...you know it's safe...versus you cannot point it at a person....cannot do it.

Baldwin shot a person.
The scene was set by an armourer with a random stream, having live and blank ammo used interchangeably and stored randomly....

I think this is a sound set of charges.
 
The opposite of accidental is intentional. Do you believe this was intentional?
I think we're square on this b/c of my amended post. To clarify, there's various levels of negligence ranging from simple negligence, gross negligence, wanton disregard for human life negligence, per se negligence (doing the very thing on purpose for which there are laws designed to prevent), etc.

Pointing a gun at someone and cocking the hammer is not accidental, it is a form of negligence. It probably is mitigating that someone like the armorer can take some blame and Baldwin probably can mitigate his culpability by arguing detrimental reliance on the armorer's assurances, if any were made. However, that is countered by the fact he is a very experienced professional, highly trained with guns, political very vocal about his stance on gun safety, very wealthy to hire better and more trained experts, and I think even some leadership role on the film (meaning, he probably had hiring/firing authority). And I think there was some information about lax gun play, loaded ammo on set, etc. What type of negligence, I haven't investigated deeply. The jury will figure it out. The sentence, will probably be measured in several years, perhaps a decade? And civil lawsuits.

All in all, absent a miracle or favorable jury, this is very very bad for Baldwin. Probably looking at prison and sued into insolvency.
 
I don't think intentional, and while it is the opposite, negligence is the gray area that applies here. Kind of like if you are speeding in your car, lose control and kill someone. Did you do it intentionally? No, but your lack of care while operating a vehicle resulted in someone else's death.
Best reply in this thread! Thank you, jeepman3071! Clear, concise, informative, and your answer didn't assume there was some non-existent undertone to the question.
 
I think we're square on this b/c of my amended post. To clarify, there's various levels of negligence ranging from simple negligence, gross negligence, wanton disregard for human life negligence, etc.

Pointing a gun at someone and cocking the hammer is not accidental, it is a form of negligence. It probably is mitigating that someone like the armorer can take some blame and Baldwin probably can mitigate his culpability by arguing detrimental reliance on the armorer's assurances, if any were made. However, that is countered by the fact he is a very experienced professional, highly trained with guns, political very vocal about his stance on gun safety, very wealthy to hire better and more trained experts, and I think even some leadership role on the film (meaning, he probably had hiring/firing authority). And I think there was some information about lax gun play, loaded ammo on set, etc.

All in all, absent a miracle or favorable jury, this is very very bad for Baldwin. Probably looking at prison and sued into insolvency.
Thank you, I appreciate your response!
 
I don't think intentional, and while it is the opposite, negligence is the gray area that applies here. Kind of like if you are speeding in your car, lose control and kill someone. Did you do it intentionally? No, but your lack of care while operating a vehicle resulted in someone else's death.
You've accidentally but correctly described a type of negligence, termed "negligence per se." It's a real legal application and yes it generally is intentional. If not intentional, then generally accidental. We could go deep in the analogy weeds on what the speed limit was, what were the driving conditions, actual knowledge of the law, the car conditions, how fast over the limit, was there culpability by the victim who might have been herself, being careless or negligent, etc.

Without getting deep in the weeds on silly analogies, nobody could reasonably believe Baldwin didn't know the inherent dangers of what he was doing. Pointing a gun at someone without legal justification, is a crime. Consent to that behavior, might mitigate his situation. Maybe. Maybe not. She might have granted consent to point an UNLOADED gun at her, and pull the hammer and trigger. That consent would presumably be withdrawn if she was fully informed the gun was loaded.

Analogy of that is that a football player gives consent to being legally hit during the play. That consent is withdrawn when the whistle blows, he's out of bounds, etc. Then it's an assault.

"Means negligence in itself. In a torts case, a defendant who violates a statute or regulation without an excuse is automatically considered to have breached her duty of care and is therefore negligent as a matter of law. As a result, the only thing that must be proven at trial is whether the violation was the cause in fact and proximate cause of the plaintiff's injury. According to Restatement (Third) of Torts §14, an actor is negligent per se if she violates a statute that is designed to protect against the type of accident or harm caused by her conduct, and the plaintiff is someone the statute is designed to protect. Restatement (Third) of Torts §15 lays out exceptions where an actor’s violation of a statute is excused and not considered negligent. The exceptions include cases where the statute is unclear, the actor exercised reasonable care in attempting to comply with the statute, or the actor’s noncompliance with the statute resulted in less harm than if she complied. The most common application of negligence per se is traffic violations, where the driver is automatically considered negligent for violating the traffic code."
 
Everyone is reading too much into this.
Involuntary manslaughter is Negligence or Recklessness resulting in the death of another human being.
Simple stuff, the DA stated this from the outset. A jury will decide the rest.

Let's keep in mind a gun is a bonified human killing weapon making the case even stronger than many other things.
Point a gun at someone for any reason, pull the trigger and kill another human being you are going to be charged as being reckless or negligent.
Gosh it happens everyday in the USA, claiming you didnt know the gun was loaded or was safe to point at someone and pull the trigger, well...

"The first type of involuntary manslaughter occurs when a defendant recklessly or negligently commits an act that results in the death of another person. Recklessness usually means that the defendant was aware of the risk that they were creating, while negligence usually means that the defendant was not aware of the risk but reasonably should have been aware of it."
 
8 out of 10 people in this thread seem to be ***** in a terrible mood.
Alec Baldwin leans the wrong direction for this crowd. I have no feelings or opinion of him either way, to be clear.

In this situation though, this is like playing cops and robbers with your kids or grandkids and how many people here check and clear the toy guns they play with ? This was a movie set, with what should be a prop gun. Do movies routinely use real guns ? Everyone knows the answer to that....
 
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Alec Baldwin leans the wrong direction for this crowd. I have no feelings or opinion of him either way, to be clear.

In this situation though, this is like playing cops and robbers with your kids or grandkids and how many people here check and clear the toy guns they play with ? This was a movie set, with what should be a prop gun. Do movies routinely use real guns ? Everyone knows the answer to that....
I meant in the way we were responding to and treating each other. I don't give a rat's patootie about Alec Baldwin - something bad and avoidable happened, he was charged, and a jury of his peers will decide his guilt.
 
No particular comments on this case, but just a few stories.

First of all, as background, I've been handling guns since I was a kid, and had safety drilled into me at an early age. Even though I could easily recite the rules of gun handling, I no longer even consciously think about them-I just do them.

Several years ago, I was over visiting with some friends and one wanted to show me a gun he had just gotten. He was carrying it that day, so he unholstered it and while I watched he racked the slide and dropped the magazine(note the order there). He hands it to me and encourages me to try the trigger. As soon as it comes into my hands, I rack the slide again and out pops a live round. Again, note that he'd made the classic mistake of rack then drop, not drop then rack. Everyone at the table just kind of reacts in shock. I hand the gun back to my friend who then clears it again, hands it back to me, and I clear it once again before pointing in a safe direction and pulling the trigger.

Even though I'd have pointed it in a safe direction anyway, it could have easily caused at least a broken window if not worse had I not followed the rule of clearing it myself DESPITE just watching my friend do it.

Second story:

I went to graduate school with a bunch of folks who were from other countries and were quite fascinated by guns as many had never seen a "real" one. We're at a cookout one evening and one of my range buddies in the department and I strike up a conversation that gets a lot of other folks interested. As it so happens I'd been earlier that day and still had a couple of guns in my trunk(unloaded as that particular range is very strict about enforcing cold everywhere but the firing line) and wanted to show this friend a new acquisition-in this case a Rossi 357 Lever gun. A few others interested follow us over, and I let one interested Indian girl handle it. Almost immediately, she turns and draws a bead right square on someone's head. I knew the gun was unloaded, and the lever was down so no chance of the firing pin even dropping, but I still QUICKLY pushed it down and told her that you never, ever, ever do that unless you intend to actually shoot the person. She says "I wasn't going to pull the trigger" and does it again. I jerk it out of her hands and say "You're done here."

Point being, you don't play around. I realize a movie set can be a different world, but you still can't be too careful.
 
You only point a real gun at something you want dead. He was negligent for sure - however the legal beagles want to spin it.

It won't matter anyway - no jury will convict, and the prosecutor won't try very hard either. The charge is all for show.

I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
 
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