ABC: Judge dismisses Alec Baldwin's 'Rust' case after defense claims evidence was withheld.

[SHOZ]

Well there is always the hidden agenda story behind this too ......

 

[vavavroom]

Yep, just finished a 15:20 flight and did not sleep well. Even with a huge selection - it was hard to find movies that were not “action packed” with physical fighting, extreme stunts, guns by the dozens, other weapons, and some gawd awful driving/stunts …

panem at circenses

 

[4WD]

panem at circenses

Okay, but just pointing out there’s likely more risk of injury in filming these vs a love story - or courtroom drama …

 

[Leo99]

Actors should be trained in gun safety, if they will be handling firearms.

Same with if they will be driving a vehicle. You don't turn a person loose with a vehicle and no experience.

Natalie Portman starred in Leon: The Professional when she was 12 years old. Due to the gun use, her parents insisted that she be training and competent on gun safety.

Too many are applying real world gun safety and laws to movie sets.

 

[Leo99]

The details of the event I just posted suggest otherwise to your description here:

Assistant director Dave Halls fetched a prop gun from a cart outside the church and yelled “cold gun,” indicating it was unloaded. He then handed the gun to Baldwin.

In the accounts I read, he was told to point the gun at the camera which the lady was standing behind.

Are there other accounts (I'm sure there are!) that you have found reference to?

I read that they unloaded the dummy rounds and loaded live rounds and went out to the desert to plink during a break. Upon returning to the movie set, no one cleared the guns to ensure the live rounds were all ejected. I've heard that the most dangerous gun is an unloaded one and that is what happened here.

 

[4WD]

Natalie Portman starred in Leon: The Professional when she was 12 years old. Due to the gun use, her parents insisted that she be training and competent on gun safety.

Too many are applying real world gun safety and laws to movie sets.

Maybe bcs it was a real gun and a real CSI body …
I just got home and my wife handed me my pistol - I immediately removed ammo and reloaded after making sure everything moved smoothly …
All done 90° from both of us …

 

[Astro14]

The details of the event I just posted suggest otherwise to your description here:

Assistant director Dave Halls fetched a prop gun from a cart outside the church and yelled “cold gun,” indicating it was unloaded. He then handed the gun to Baldwin.

In the accounts I read, he was told to point the gun at the camera which the lady was standing behind.

Are there other accounts (I'm sure there are!) that you have found reference to?

I’m going off initial reporting. Perhaps more came out in the Armorer trial?

Further, in your account, the assistant Director did not get the gun via the armor.

They just picked it up off a table, without verifying that it was, in fact, cold.

So it’s quite clear that there was a breakdown in protocol, and weapon handling.

That sort of sloppiness, that failure to operate under existing protocols, established for safety, and the failure of the safety culture really, fall squarely at the feet of the producer.

 

[GON]

No opinion on this particular case. I didn't research the case and find what the conditions are to this case irrelevant to the manslaughter that allegedly occurred, be it voluntary or involuntary.

There is a minimum implied task for anyone handling a firearm, that that individual personally inspects the firearm. The task can't be delegated to anyone, whatsoever, under any circumstance. If a person is unable to personally inspect the firearm, they should not be in possession of the firearm. Part of using a firearm for training, instruction, inspection, familiarity, purchase, rehearsal, or use is the requirement to inspect the firearm. If a person is unable, or unwilling to inspect the firearm, they should not accept the firearm.

 

[Leo99]

Maybe bcs it was a real gun and a real CSI body …
I just got home and my wife handed me my pistol - I immediately removed ammo and reloaded after making sure everything moved smoothly …
All done 90° from both of us …

You're a real gun person. Some actors are not and hence the need for an on-set SME.

 

[4WD]

I read that they unloaded the dummy rounds and loaded live rounds and went out to the desert to plink during a break. Upon returning to the movie set, no one cleared the guns to ensure the live rounds were all ejected. I've heard that the most dangerous gun is an unloaded one and that is what happened here.

Gives rise to who all did the plinking - or at least knew live rounds were discharged there …

 

[4WD]

No opinion on this particular case. I didn't research the case and find what the conditions are to this case irrelevant to the manslaughter that allegedly occurred, be it voluntary or involuntary.

There is a minimum implied task for anyone handling a firearm, that that individual personally inspects the firearm. The task can't be delegated to anyone, whatsoever, under any circumstance. If a person is unable to personally inspect the firearm, they should not be in possession of the firearm. Part of using a firearm for training, instruction, inspection, familiarity, purchase, rehearsal, or use is the requirement to inspect the firearm. If a person is unable, or unwilling to inspect the firearm, they should not accept the firearm.

And it was said he insisted on real guns …

 

[TiGeo]

I can kinda agree with this. I think it was a tragic accident that no one intended to happen, and it's very unfortunate for the girl that died and her loved ones. However, looking at it from the mindset of a gun enthusiasts, I ALWAYS do a safety check on any gun handed to me, no matter the circumstance. Treat every gun as if it was loaded. Don't point it at someone even when you've double and tripled checked that it's not loaded. It's pretty basic gun safety, and perhaps if some people properly educated themselves on gun safety rather than condemning them, this accident could've been avoided. They let someone who's anti-gun, with no formal training in handling a firearm safely, play around with a gun, and it resulted in someone getting killed. If Alec instead respected guns, and followed proper safety procedures, he would've caught that it had a live round in it beforehand and avoided this. Therefore, I feel there is severe neglect on Alec's part, neglect to practice proper safety with a firearm, and thus is as culpible as the armorer.

Still missing how this works on a movie set. You do what you are told and don't do anything that isn't within what you are told with the firearm. This isn't about being a gun guy or not. If you, a gun guy, were handed a firearm on set, told to do xyz with it, you aren't inspecting it to determine what sorts of loads are in it b/c of your knowledge of firearms, that's not in your role nor is it allowed from what I can find, that's the armorers job. If you go outside of what you are told to do or don't follow the portion of the safety rules pertaining to what you should do/shouldn't do with a firearm prop while working on a scene, then yes, you screwed up and are part of it. AB's beliefs about 2A and firearms have gotten tangled (of course, it's BITOG) with a workplace safety incident that resulted in a fatality b/c more than one person(s) did not follow procedures w/r to prop firearms that were set forth to ensure that didn't happen. A root-cause analysis would likely point back to the fact that live ammo was allowed on set (and whoever allowed that) and unknowingly loaded into a prop firearm, not that the actor pointed the gun at the a camera and pulled the hammer/trigger that was part of the scene and what he was told to do. From what I can tell, beyond what I posted above showing some rules surrounding firearms for movies/plays, the actor doesn't do much here w/r to the inspection of the firearms, loading, etc. If AB was also part of the management that allowed knowingly safety rules to be violated, on that he would also be accountable as he should be like in any other workplace fatality.

 

[TiGeo]

I’m going off initial reporting. Perhaps more came out in the Armorer trial?

Further, in your account, the assistant Director did not get the gun via the armor.

They just picked it up off a table, without verifying that it was, in fact, cold.

So it’s quite clear that there was a breakdown in protocol, and weapon handling.

That sort of sloppiness, that failure to operate under existing protocols, established for safety, and the failure of the safety culture really, fall squarely at the feet of the producer.

Clearly there was a breakdown, it's why someone got shot. Like any other workplace incident, during the investigation there is always some step missed or side-stepped rules/procedures which are many times due to poor management not enforcing these rules. I used to do and got training on incident investigations at the mining company I worked for for many years to deal with safety incidents, injuries, fatality (thank goodness never had that happen), it's amazing what you find out when you interview everyone and the rabbit hole it leads to w/r to management, procedures, etc. I'm sure this was a gold mine b/c as you point out, dude just grabbed it and handed it to AB, I'm quite there is a lengthily procedure to ensure the rounds are dummies, gun is safe, etc. The rules I posted up above somewhere list it all out and make a lot of sense.

 

[TiGeo]

I read that they unloaded the dummy rounds and loaded live rounds and went out to the desert to plink during a break. Upon returning to the movie set, no one cleared the guns to ensure the live rounds were all ejected. I've heard that the most dangerous gun is an unloaded one and that is what happened here.

Yes, some stuff I read talked about plinking with that gun (clearly, that's why it was loaded with live rounds) during off-times. Crazy that was allowed to exist on site. Again, break down in the rules always leads to bad outcomes w/r to safety procedures.

 

[RDY4WAR]

Still missing how this works on a movie set. You do what you are told and don't do anything that isn't within what you are told with the firearm. This isn't about being a gun guy or not. If you, a gun guy, were handed a firearm on set, told to do xyz with it, you aren't inspecting it to determine what sorts of loads are in it b/c of your knowledge of firearms, that's not in your role nor is it allowed from what I can find, that's the armorers job. If you go outside of what you are told to do or don't follow the portion of the safety rules pertaining to what you should do/shouldn't do with a firearm prop while working on a scene, then yes, you screwed up and are part of it. AB's beliefs about 2A and firearms have gotten tangled (of course, it's BITOG) with a workplace safety incident that resulted in a fatality b/c more than one person(s) did not follow procedures w/r to prop firearms that were set forth to ensure that didn't happen. A root-cause analysis would likely point back to the fact that live ammo was allowed on set (and whoever allowed that) and unknowingly loaded into a prop firearm, not that the actor pointed the gun at the a camera and pulled the hammer/trigger that was part of the scene and what he was told to do. From what I can tell, beyond what I posted above showing some rules surrounding firearms for movies/plays, the actor doesn't do much here w/r to the inspection of the firearms, loading, etc. If AB was also part of the management that allowed knowingly safety rules to be violated, on that he would also be accountable as he should be like in any other workplace fatality.

I don't care what they say I need to do. I don't care if it's the armorer's job. MY JOB IS SAFETY. That's #1. I'm going to take the 10 seconds for a safety check. If they don't like it, it's their problem. Safety comes before anything else. There were several safety failures associated with this and each one involved is equally culpable. If they told me to point the gun at someone, I would walk off the set.

Even when at the range with my best friend, and watching him unload the gun, and double check it's unloaded before handing it to me, I still do my own safety check. That's just basic common sense with firearms. Treat every gun as if it's loaded. Don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill, regardless of whether it's loaded or not. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire. When someone hands you a gun and says it's unloaded, even if you saw them unload it, trust but verify. Basic safety.

 

[TiGeo]

I don't care what they say I need to do. I don't care if it's the armorer's job. MY JOB IS SAFETY. That's #1. I'm going to take the 10 seconds for a safety check. If they don't like it, it's their problem. Safety comes before anything else. There were several safety failures associated with this and each one involved is equally culpable. If they told me to point the gun at someone, I would walk off the set.

Even when at the range with my best friend, and watching him unload the gun, and double check it's unloaded before handing it to me, I still do my own safety check. That's just basic common sense with firearms. Treat every gun as if it's loaded. Don't point it at anything you don't intend to kill, regardless of whether it's loaded or not. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire. When someone hands you a gun and says it's unloaded, even if you saw them unload it, trust but verify. Basic safety.

And you wouldn't then be an actor on a set with firearms then which of course is up to you.

 

[vavavroom]

Okay, but just pointing out there’s likely more risk of injury in filming these vs a love story - or courtroom drama …

Love stories and courtroom dramas make me want to end myself.

 

[RDY4WAR]

And you wouldn't then be an actor on a set with firearms then which of course is up to you.

If they really have a problem with me checking the gun when taking possession, then they're not someone I want to work for anyway. It takes all of 10 seconds and potentially could save a life. It would've spared her life if he had the sense to do so.

 

[TiGeo]

If they really have a problem with me checking the gun when taking possession, then they're not someone I want to work for anyway. It takes all of 10 seconds and potentially could save a life. It would've spared her life if he had the sense to do so.

I don't disagree, I'm just stating the conditions of the situation here. Moreover, when you to an indoor range, do you physically inspect the back-stop/behind the target? It's rule 4 but nobody does this. Imagine a bullet leaves the range or strikes someone behind, would this be the shooters fault for not checking and assuming this range was safe?

 

[SC Maintenance]

Lets say you and I were making a youtube video in my backyard. I hand you a gun that we both know is real (because Baldwin did - he was the producer and demanded it). You take the gun assuming it unloaded, point it towards nothing, and kill some person walking down the sidewalk.

Do you think either of us would skate on that? Of course we would not. Nor should we.

Add to the fact that Hollywood can CGI anything into anything so there really is no need for a real gun on set at all. Not to mention they have killed an actor on set in the past. So everyone knows this can happen. That makes them all negligent.

But as usual - different rules for different folks. That part unfortunately is not new.