A3 oil

[Dr. T]

Yeah the 15-50 is A3. But, the topic was if M-1 will ever make a 5/10-30 A3.

I agree, they'd run fine....and Patman you should give it a run. However, I will say that the car will run markedly sluggish especially if previously run on a steady diet of 30 weights. Auto-rx would be in order to clean things out first. Interstingly enough, both the Castrol Syntec 5-50 and TWS 10-60 have provided better engine response, buttmeter hp and fuel economy than the 15-50 ever could at any temps....and the fuel economy is still rising with each tankfull on the 10-60..so far 2k mi. on it.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. T:
Yeah the 15-50 is A3. But, the topic was if M-1 will ever make a 5/10-30 A3.

I agree, they'd run fine....and Patman you should give it a run. However, I will say that the car will run markedly sluggish especially if previously run on a steady diet of 30 weights. Auto-rx would be in order to clean things out first.

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There would be no need for that in my case, I just finished up the 2nd Auto-rx treatment in my engine this spring.

As far as my car running sluggish, that would be one of my biggest concerns when running such a thick oil. I don't want to lose any horsepower, even if it was only 2 or 3. Plus often when I go dragracing, the car will sit for an hour or more between runs, letting the oil get cold, and that thick 40C viscosity (125cst) of the 15w50 is a lot less desirable than the 50-70cst oils I've been running so far.

But sooner or later curiosity will get the better of me.

I need to win the lottery so I can buy more test vehicles!

(and not have to work either, so I can spend part of my day driving all of these test vehicles!)

 

[F1Crazy]

Dr T, in what engine do you run that TWS?

 

[buster]

I'm with Patman, I wish Mobil would just make M1 at 11cst's instead of there energy conservation formula. It would then be more idea for big V8's. It would also be A3 rated. Patman is right too as i dont think it is possible to have a A3 rated oil at 10cst.

[ August 19, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Dr. T]

S70 (5.6L V-12)

 

[Dr. T]

Patman, if you 5.7 is anything like my 5.6, then it stays at temps. over 40C even 12 hrs. after shutting down...I mean mine's a brick oven when it comes to heat output. Even in the winter, the temp. needle will go to the middle even after shutting the car off 4-6 hrs. earlier with instant warmth coming from the vents...

That's why the visc. at 40C to me, is nothing more than a single reference number to compare with visc. at 100C, and with other oils but that's about it. It's true/actual importance is trivial...ie. no engine operates at 40C...it's just "passed" on the way to norm. operating temp..

Another intersting thing I noticed is that it seems like the 10-60 gets the engine temp. to norm. the fastest of any oil I've ever tried. Faster than the M-1 15-50 or Syntec 5-50. Is this a good thing?

But, with all that torque on hand, don't think you'd be losing much of anything....may even control some wheel spin that may otherwise slow you down.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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That's why the visc. at 40C to me, is nothing more than a single reference number to compare with visc. at 100C, and with other oils but that's about it. It's true/actual importance is trivial...ie. no engine operates at 40C...it's just "passed" on the way to norm. operating temp..

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I wish that oil makers offered up a graph that showed precisely what viscosity they were at all the way from extreme cold temps (-40F) all the way up to extreme hot temps (300F) That would be way more useful than just getting it at 40c and 100c. Heck, I'd just like to see them rate it at 10c or 20c, so you'd get a better idea of the thickness of one oil over another on a typical cold start in slightly cooler than summer weather.

quote:

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Another intersting thing I noticed is that it seems like the 10-60 gets the engine temp. to norm. the fastest of any oil I've ever tried. Faster than the M-1 15-50 or Syntec 5-50. Is this a good thing?

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Yes and no. It's a good thing to have your engine warm up quicker, however the reasoning behind it is probably because your engine is working harder to push through that thicker oil. It's like when you run your air conditioning, your engine warms up faster, because it's being strained more.

quote:

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But, with all that torque on hand, don't think you'd be losing much of anything....may even control some wheel spin that may otherwise slow you down.

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I actually don't have a problem with wheelspin at all. Even though my car has the optional 3.23 rear axle ratio (2.73 is the basic one), I can leave the line at 100% full throttle and get very little wheelspin on the street, and zero wheelspin at the dragstrip. These new Goodyear F1 GS D3 tires simply rock!

 

[F1Crazy]

Dr T, BMW didn't really required this oil in that engine, why did you decide to run it?

Nice car choice BTW

 

[Dr. T]

Well, they have the standard "all temp" chart we've seen here before for the 1994 year (SH specs and all) illustrating you could use basically ANY oil grade that's made out there.

From a 5-20 to a 20-50...so this "engine wasn't designed for it" thing is simply and completely B.S..

That said, there is a column on the side of the chart that covers all temps. and is labelled "BMW Special Oils". When I inquired about it back in 1998, I was told it mean "Synthetic" oils like 5-50.

Currently, it obviously refers to the TWS Motorsports 10-60 oil. So, I elected to give it a wag after trying Delvac 1, M-1 15-50 and the Syntec 5-50 for a couple intervals each. Granted my engine has been plugged up with varnish and slugde from about 70k (9k changes) of BMW 5-30 use and these helped clean things out (especially the Delvac and Syntec). Thusfar (2k), the 10-60 rocks. I will post UOA after a 2nd interval of use.

I want an oil that I can use for the full 9k interval without looking beat up and without having to add a drop. The Syntec 5-50 wasn't bad...so I may decide to either switch back to it or stay with the 10-60....the car currently has 165k mi......and after all, it is an "M" engine

 

[F1Crazy]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. T:
......and after all, it is an "M" engine

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...and it even won Le Mans

 

[Yuk]

So, what I want to know is.... Is Dr. T a real Dr. or does he just play one on TV?

Wasn't there a Dr. Teeth on the Muppet Show?

 

[Dr. T]

Let's just say that the German Castrol is getting good use in my Dental Handpieces (aka "the drill")

 

[sprintman]

Is TWS 10W60 similar to Formula R 10W60?...s

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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Let's just say that the German Castrol is getting good use in my Dental Handpieces (aka "the drill") [Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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Great, and for some reason I always kept thinking of Mr. T! Well, he works with teeth, too, I guess...

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. T:
Let's just say that the German Castrol is getting good use in my Dental Handpieces (aka "the drill")

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...I will NOT say anything rude in return...I will NOT say anything rude in return...I will NOT...

 

[quadrun1]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
Is TWS 10W60 similar to Formula R 10W60?...s

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Yes, I think so; I found this on the web:

quote:

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Engine Oil Recommendations


from BMW Service Information Bulletin 11 06 01, October 2001

BMW has changed their engine-oil recommendation for all M cars equipped with the new S54 engine (E46 M3 coupe and convertible, 2001-on M coupe and M roadster) from the previous BMW High Performance Synthetic 5W-30 engine oil (made by Castrol), pn 07 51 0 017 866 (1 quart), to Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil (previously known as Castrol Formula RS 10W-60. . . the oil is the same, only the name has changed) pn 07 51 0 009 420 (1 liter).

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[F1Crazy]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
Is TWS 10W60 similar to Formula R 10W60?...s

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I couldn't find the newest specs but from I could dig out it looked like TWS was slighlty thicker both @40C and @100C and had lower TBN, other specs were very close.

I know that even in Germany TWS can only be found at the dealerships and suprisingly is even more expensive ($16-18) than here in US ($12).

[ August 21, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: F1Crazy ]

 

[JohnBrowning]

What kills me is that most of the engines on the road in doemstic brands are old designs. For examble the GM 3.8 is from 1962 or 64. The 1.8 liter in the Catolla and Prism are also old designs. The GM 3.1 and 3.4 are also old school designs. THe 3.0V6 Toyota still uses in some aplications is also very old design. BMW is preety much useing old design on the inline 6 as well. It stikes me as odd that so many people do not think their cars or trucks can handle a thicker oil.

Even most newer engine designs have not closed up clearance that much especialy in the bearing area. Toyota has a few engines and so does Nissan that have some realy tight micro groved bearing but most domestics have stayed away from this. WHat has significantly changed is tolerances and tolerance stacking. Contricity limits have been tighten alot. THe main place that clearances have been tightened is between piston and bore and valve to guide.

Do not get me wrong the JPN and European cars have been slowly tightening clearance on their engines but not across the board. THe domestics have not done much to the bearing clearances at all.

Anyone intersted in knowing what your engines clearances are can find out in the Service Manual or Unit Repair Manual for your car or engine!

The best way to find out what works best for your engine is to use UOA and test differnent weights of oil under simalar conditions. Anything less then this is an assumeption!

 

[Patman]

quote:

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The best way to find out what works best for your engine is to use UOA and test differnent weights of oil under simalar conditions. Anything less then this is an assumeption!

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Excellent advice! This is exactly the point I'm trying to tell people. One size does not fit all, but yet most car companies say to use nothing but 5w30 (or 5w20) when in fact it could take something thicker, especially if you drive harder and see higher oil temps than others with the same engine. I still do believe that 15w50 and 20w50 are not really necessary for most of the engines out there though.