We deserve higher gas prices??? What about the guy that drives a Toyota Echo and barely gets by as is? I think your being quite a bit egocentric. There are plenty of working class people in this country that these fuel prices will hurt. Also for those of you that say, yes it will make us realize our evils of driving SUVs blah blah blah, think of the guy who doesnt drive the suv and still has to pay 2.00 for a coke from the machine instead of 1.00 becuase it now costs so much to transport it. It will effect EVERYONE so get off your high horse and realize it.
A Thought On Gasoline Prices - Rats...Maybe They Sorta Make Sense
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I disagree that Mikemc was being egocentric. Main Entry: ego·cen·tric
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: "e-gO-'sen-trik
1 : concerned with the individual rather than society...
Mike was lumping "us" into a group, you were talking about an individual's problem with "getting by" even though he drives a fuel efficient car. If you are that individual and are lamenting about your situation, THAT is being egocentric. What Mike says is true...as a GROUP, WE are beginning to pay the price in dollars for OUR past habits.
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: "e-gO-'sen-trik
1 : concerned with the individual rather than society...
Mike was lumping "us" into a group, you were talking about an individual's problem with "getting by" even though he drives a fuel efficient car. If you are that individual and are lamenting about your situation, THAT is being egocentric. What Mike says is true...as a GROUP, WE are beginning to pay the price in dollars for OUR past habits.
I think that diesel fuel sold to licensed trucking companies should be free of taxes. Would keep economic growth going and sort of naturally 'ration' fuel away from personal use to commercial use.
Of course then you'd see a lot more people running out for groceries, taking summer vacations, and waiting in the McDonald's drive through in SEMIs
Of course then you'd see a lot more people running out for groceries, taking summer vacations, and waiting in the McDonald's drive through in SEMIs
The railways here pay significant fuel taxes on the diesel they burn, even though they own and maintain all of their own infrastructure.
Maintaining (and perhaps even increasing) taxes on diesel sold to truckers would help to tip the balance towards railways, an obviously more efficient form of transportation over significant distances.
When I managed a vinyl compounding plant 25 years ago, we switched from rail to trucks for the bagged ground limestone we used. With trucks, we could specify the day it arrived, and it would be in good shape. With rail, it could easily be a week late. The railroad couldn't even tell us the time of day the car would be spotted on our siding once it was in town. Once it was at our dock, often the doors would be in such bad shape, we had trouble getting them open. Once we had the door open, often the load was in bad shape, stacks leaning over, bags busted and leaking, etc. This was with Norfolk and Southern, usually thought of as one of the better lines.
The stuff was cheap, and coming in from over 600 miles away. The freight was a big part of the price. We just couldn't live with the service.
Don't know if the railroads have their act together now or not.
The stuff was cheap, and coming in from over 600 miles away. The freight was a big part of the price. We just couldn't live with the service.
Don't know if the railroads have their act together now or not.
Actually big and hungry engines keep gas prices lower then it could be... Lower petrol demands will actually drive prices even more to adjust their revenue accordingly . There already significant gas saving over the last couple of years due to hundred thousands new and fuel efficient cars on the road, many people cut their monthly milege by 10%-15% but the gas prices continue rise almost daly. Nothing gonna stop em till petrol demand drop to nearly 0%
[ April 28, 2006, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: den_s ]
[ April 28, 2006, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: den_s ]
IMO Outsourcing started all of this. I know I know here we go but hear me out. Gas Prices are up partly due to increased fuel usage in india and China, due to a booming economy. Their economy is booming why? Because americans let big bussines get away with sending all that money overseas for Cheaper labor, why because we as americans demand cheap products and High profits. so as their middle class grows so does their ability to buy cars, bigger houses etc. IMO this will be short lived because the dollar is weak and eventually it will be less profitable to outsource.
Beyond the fuel tax (thankfully much less in the NYT Article
[ April 29, 2006, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]
[ April 29, 2006, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: ex_MGB ]
TRD, you can disagree with me without launching a personal attack.
[ April 29, 2006, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: mikemc ]
[ April 29, 2006, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: mikemc ]
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Those "greedy fat hogs" are people like you and I that have money invested in the stock market and 401K retirement plans. It funny to hear people talk like this, but if their retirement goes south because the companies aren't making a profit they are still upset. You can't have it both ways....
What should come first in a nation? What is best for the individual or what is best for the nation. Today it is what is best for the individual which is why we no longer see pension plans, health benefits employee benefits etc., because all companies care about is the stockholder value and profits, not what is best for their employees or long term for the company. true, good if you are a stockholder, the majority of Americans do not own oil stocks. As noted by many source, the rich are getting richer!
My issue is, when the price or crude goes up it is supposed to be a pass through cost, why do profits skyrocket, raw material costs increase, prices increase but where are the huge profits coming from, gouging?????
Those "greedy fat hogs" are people like you and I that have money invested in the stock market and 401K retirement plans. It funny to hear people talk like this, but if their retirement goes south because the companies aren't making a profit they are still upset. You can't have it both ways....
What should come first in a nation? What is best for the individual or what is best for the nation. Today it is what is best for the individual which is why we no longer see pension plans, health benefits employee benefits etc., because all companies care about is the stockholder value and profits, not what is best for their employees or long term for the company. true, good if you are a stockholder, the majority of Americans do not own oil stocks. As noted by many source, the rich are getting richer!
My issue is, when the price or crude goes up it is supposed to be a pass through cost, why do profits skyrocket, raw material costs increase, prices increase but where are the huge profits coming from, gouging?????
Spector, if profits are based on a percentage of the base material's price...higher base material prices equate to higher dollars collected. If the COST to change the base material into the finished product is the same as before the base material's price increased, the percentage profit is then higher. That could be a part of it. Mostly, I think it is capitalism at it's "finest", or worst, depending upon which side of the cash register you are standing.
Looking at SUVS and other gas guzzlers is too simplistic of an approach to gar prices. Sure there are a lot of vehicles on the road that are too big for what people need them to be and use more gas that what they ought to.
But look at industry and farming, and they are energy intensive businesses that these prices are hurting badly, yet they can't just buy a smaller tractor or dump truck that gets better fuel economy, etc. Most of the truckers I know are doing fine because they can add a fuel surcharge and it doesn't much matter then what the cost of fuel does as long as their customers are okay with the surcharge.
In farming, the farmer can't just add a fuel surcharge to the price of his grain. Commodity grain prices are basically the same as they were 30, even 50 years ago in true dollars, not even counting inflation. Corn was 2 bucks a bushel in the 70s, and it was down to less than 2 dollars this past fall. All other input prices are up dramatically the past few years like fertilizer, fuel, steel, technology, seed, etc. Mining corps also have their sales dictated by the marketplace and can't very well add in the extra cost of energy unless the entire industry does it together and forces it on the market.
So for those of you wanting fuel to go to ten bucks a gallon because you have a little car that gets 40 mile per gallon and you want to spite your neighbor for the nice SUV he has, take the long view and think about what other sectors of our economy this affects.
But look at industry and farming, and they are energy intensive businesses that these prices are hurting badly, yet they can't just buy a smaller tractor or dump truck that gets better fuel economy, etc. Most of the truckers I know are doing fine because they can add a fuel surcharge and it doesn't much matter then what the cost of fuel does as long as their customers are okay with the surcharge.
In farming, the farmer can't just add a fuel surcharge to the price of his grain. Commodity grain prices are basically the same as they were 30, even 50 years ago in true dollars, not even counting inflation. Corn was 2 bucks a bushel in the 70s, and it was down to less than 2 dollars this past fall. All other input prices are up dramatically the past few years like fertilizer, fuel, steel, technology, seed, etc. Mining corps also have their sales dictated by the marketplace and can't very well add in the extra cost of energy unless the entire industry does it together and forces it on the market.
So for those of you wanting fuel to go to ten bucks a gallon because you have a little car that gets 40 mile per gallon and you want to spite your neighbor for the nice SUV he has, take the long view and think about what other sectors of our economy this affects.
My thoughts as well.
We all were a bit spoiled because gasoline stayed near $1/gallon from the mid 1980s to the late 1990s. Right now, we are paying the price for several reasons:
- Clean air standards (clean air is a good thing, but it has a price)
- The switch from MTBE to ethanol (MTBE can be transported through pipelines but it leaks into groundwater. Ethanol doesn't contaminate the water, but it's expensive to produce and transport)
- Higher energy costs from increased worldwide consumption, particularly in India and China
If oil contracts weren't denominated in dollars and Middle Eastern currencies pegged to the dollar, we'd be paying even more. That may yet happen.
At the end of the day, people get worked up about gas prices because gas is one of the few things whose price is plastered on big signs along almost every busy street or highway. At 12,000 miles and even 20mpg, a $1 gas price increase directly costs an additional $600 a year. That's not too much in the scheme of things.
As for the knock-on effect on the economy (the old "we all pay for it, even if we don't drive" argument), that's due more to high diesel (i.e. truck fuel) and jet fuel costs than high gasoline prices. Diesel prices are also higher this year because of new pollution standards, as well as the price of crude oil.
- Clean air standards (clean air is a good thing, but it has a price)
- The switch from MTBE to ethanol (MTBE can be transported through pipelines but it leaks into groundwater. Ethanol doesn't contaminate the water, but it's expensive to produce and transport)
- Higher energy costs from increased worldwide consumption, particularly in India and China
If oil contracts weren't denominated in dollars and Middle Eastern currencies pegged to the dollar, we'd be paying even more. That may yet happen.
At the end of the day, people get worked up about gas prices because gas is one of the few things whose price is plastered on big signs along almost every busy street or highway. At 12,000 miles and even 20mpg, a $1 gas price increase directly costs an additional $600 a year. That's not too much in the scheme of things.
As for the knock-on effect on the economy (the old "we all pay for it, even if we don't drive" argument), that's due more to high diesel (i.e. truck fuel) and jet fuel costs than high gasoline prices. Diesel prices are also higher this year because of new pollution standards, as well as the price of crude oil.
One word from me. Oligopoly.
And some bedtime reading:
http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/oilprofits.pdf
And some bedtime reading:
http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/oilprofits.pdf
Homework assignment: What is the four-firm concentration ratio for the refining industry in the US?
Here's a data source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/...tions/refinery_capacity_data/pdf/table_40.pdf
Here's a data source:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/...tions/refinery_capacity_data/pdf/table_40.pdf
Using ConnocoPhillips, Exxon, BP, then ChevronTexaco, they have 38 percent of the total production in the USA. DING DING DING!
strjock81, you make some valid points. But, owners of small cars getting 40 mpg that would like to see their SUV-driving neighbors squirm if gas were to go to 10/gallon, have about 0% effect on what the price of gasoline does or doesn't do. So, it does no price-harm for them to wish that happens.
However, I'd like to see it go much much higher because I think it could have a positive impact on the health of the people in one of the fattests nations on earth. Just a couple of days a week of longer walks down the mall and back, instead of parking at a store on one end of the mall, then driving to the other end of the mall to another store, could help decrease health costs. If exercise (defined as simple walking around instead of sitting) could be placed into a prescription drug, it would instantly be the most important, most effective, and most prescribed drug of all. And, the long-term cost savings in terms of health-care costs would be significant. The only place where this drug could adversely affect costs would be at the end of life, when there would be more elderly still living. However, longer-lived healthier elderly are still cheaper to maintain than sickly elderly. SO, for those reasons, I say, let it hit 10/gallon.
Like the small-car owner you mentioned, my "idea" has 0% effect on what actually happens.
strjock81, you make some valid points. But, owners of small cars getting 40 mpg that would like to see their SUV-driving neighbors squirm if gas were to go to 10/gallon, have about 0% effect on what the price of gasoline does or doesn't do. So, it does no price-harm for them to wish that happens.
However, I'd like to see it go much much higher because I think it could have a positive impact on the health of the people in one of the fattests nations on earth. Just a couple of days a week of longer walks down the mall and back, instead of parking at a store on one end of the mall, then driving to the other end of the mall to another store, could help decrease health costs. If exercise (defined as simple walking around instead of sitting) could be placed into a prescription drug, it would instantly be the most important, most effective, and most prescribed drug of all. And, the long-term cost savings in terms of health-care costs would be significant. The only place where this drug could adversely affect costs would be at the end of life, when there would be more elderly still living. However, longer-lived healthier elderly are still cheaper to maintain than sickly elderly. SO, for those reasons, I say, let it hit 10/gallon.
Like the small-car owner you mentioned, my "idea" has 0% effect on what actually happens.
And the correct answer is: 41.4%
Anybody for the Herfindahl-Hirschman Index?
Anybody for the Herfindahl-Hirschman Index?
Was my math was wrong? 6,541,901 divided by 17,124,870 = 38.2
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