Spilling my guts again. Below is a letter I wrote last year to the owner of Amsoil. I never sent it because I was still collecting information for my file. It's in rough draft form and I didn't bother to clean it up, or even update it, so I apologize for any danglers, typos, etc. Some of the references are right here on BiTOG, so you should be able to figure it out.
Also, I'm NOT a bridge burner. This was written when I was still in business. Just take it as information.
Have a read.
________________________________________________
Al Amatuzio May 25, 2003
Amsoil Building
Superior Building
Superior, WI
Dear Al,
I have been an Amsoil dealer for a little over four years and have gained some fascinating information about the great world of lubricants. My reason for writing this letter directly to you is; to help Amsoil, and hopefully, eventually myself via improved products. As you will see this is a compilation of information. Chemistry has always been somewhat of an interest for me, however lubricants have grabbed my full concentration.
I also want to tell you two reasons I’m not writing this letter:
1) I am not writing this to get anyone at Amsoil in trouble or stir the personnel side of things.
2) And despite my feelings of how difficult it is to make any money as a downline dealer, I’m actually not writing to complain about the tiny margins, small commission credits, the necessity of a motivated sales force to buy product literature, the slow dissemination of critical information to dealers or the saturated market (# dealers/area). You would basically tell me what you have told the others with these concerns: “Try harder”, and of course you would be essentially correct.
Please take the time to read attached “e-mail string”. It began as a simple “check this issue out ” but after some soul searching, and deep thought, led me to the conclusion that I have information that could at the very least, help improve Amsoil. As you will find out I have been a site sponsor at Bob Is The Oil Guy.com as have two other Amsoil dealers. I know it is not the Amsoil policy to engage in “chat room” forums, however I can and have made some statements on this: 1) sometimes you have to go were the dragons are to fight dragons (meaning: an oil website is growing and succeeding, sometimes biased sometimes not. But why turn our backs and have zero input to this?) and 2) you can learn a lot from some chat rooms (the Bob Is The Oil Guy.com is an EXCELLENT forum with real practical technical meat – Again, why just say we don’t want to play?) Hopefully you will see some logic and wisdom in this, regardless of the history with Bob Winters and Schaeffers.
In the email, Ed Kellerman asks for proof. He is spot-on to ask this, but I cannot give you a one page note that will prove everything. I will take one issue at a time and try to layout the facts as I know them. These things cannot possibly be surprises to you and thusly you should have private backing information for each item. He also asks “WHO” is performing “these tests”. Not all the information I will provides is from ASTM (or other “certified” methods), but I doubt every improvement the Ferrari F1 team does to their car is proven with a certified test – but it is proven, one way or another. I can make the case that sometimes we ALL haven’t proven everything necessary, including Amsoil.
Foam Air Filters degrading and planar air filters with improper fit:
Degrading: Certainly this is not new news. Filters have fallen apart in less than 10,000 miles (before cleaning). Filters fall apart after one clean using a Amsoil recommended non-harmful cleaning method. I cannot say a lot about this topic other than Amsoil will replace them if customers scream loud enough. Lately there have been a couple cases that the customer did get fairly prompt replacements. Dealers need to know the magnitude of the problem. Certain filters were not as good? Was a date range of improper foam used (bad material)? This one is difficult – because I have seen filters last a long time. Mostly filters close to engine heat have the most issues, but not all. Have someone check your records and check the Air Filter forum at www.bobistheoilguy.com as well as the reputation of foam air filters in general at other car related web sites. To truly solve this one, we will need to know the root cause.
Improper fit: Edge seals on planar filters that require a molded edge in a seat for proper seal. An example is the Volvo 850 callout for a TS118. I will not sell these, mainly because there are dirt/unfiltered air pathways. Often the advice is to seat it in the airbox, then (as normal) clamp the lid on. The problem is that the lid is the intake side and the lack of seal is downstream from the filter. I believe the root cause was improper specifying for a given application. Obsoleting the special order filters went a long way to solve this issue, but a few of these improper applications still exist.
Dual Remote Oil Filter
I have sold a grand total of one of these. I do not have one on any of my cars, but I do have a dual remote filter set-up, non Amsoil, non bypass – just two SDF-15’s or FL-1A’s, so I do have some practical familiarity with remote filtration. I was not familiar with the inner working of the Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass until last week – however I was not completely ignorant, so allow me let me back up. Keep in mind this information only applies to the dual remote bypass and full flow filter, not the stand-alone bypass. When I first looked at the literature on this product (G-498 8/98) in 2000, I thought the schematic cutaway diagram was incorrect. This picture essentially depicts a device (restrictor) allowing some (metered) oil to flow into the full flow oil filter and full oil pressure to flow to the by-pass filter side. I thought the diagram was either wrong or I couldn’t understand the inner workings, so at that point in time and since some of the otherliterature in my purchased materials binder was quite old – I dismissed it. Last year I read two reports of people who reported an over 10+ PSI oil pressure drop with the dual remote bypass filter mount - both said they had contacted Amsoil directly - and really got no answers, yet when the dual remotes were removed oil pressure came back to normal. Then this year (Jan. 2003) a solidly mechanical individual reports:
With BMK-13:
Idle cold = 50 psi
Warm low cruise = 30 psi
Without BMK-13:
Idle cold = 75-80 psi
Warm low cruise = 50 psi
This got my interest up, as did some earlier discussions. All of these I, again, dismissed as something wrong with the data or the installation. Well, ignoring problems does not make them go away, so last week I read Bob (yes THAT Bob from Schaeffers Oil) continued his practical oil filter flow test that he started back in March by testing two dual remote bypass set-ups. Please go to www.bobistheoilguy.com and click on the Oil Filter forum, then the bobistheoilguy filter study thread. On pages 4, 5 and 6 of the discussion/data you’ll see where he went – and I agree – it makes no sense the way the dual remote is engineered by Amsoil. Very interesting reading throughout. ( Earlier in the test SDF-15 does quite well for a high capacity filter, I might add!). You can say this method is not ASTM, but there is the pressure drop. How can we account for this?
I had never before seen the (apparently) cast model he uses, in a picture or otherwise, and assume it is an early Amsoil design. I could easily throw that one out, as irrelevant, but both types appear to have the same internals. To restrict the full flow makes zero sense for engine longevity – but I can almost see what the engineer was attempting to do. With a really precise/light spring some oil will flow through the more restrictive bypass filter. The original engineers may have set out to keep a constant pressure at the by-pass and when the pressure goes higher than the spring pressure it lets oil go through. In practical terms this does not work – regardless of the nice pictures of installations on the corporate web site! (I would truly love the filter oil pressure readings, before and after installation of all these applications)
May 25, 2003, as posted in the oil filter flow test thread :
“Well I was the guy with the concern, and the dual bypass system that Bob tested was the one that was on my truck. Good thing it was only on for a VERY short while. I thought that maybe it was my truck or the way I installed the system, but it now seems that my concerns were genuine and the problem seems to lie with the D.R system not my install of it. I think that these tests are what this site is all about, and getting unbiased testing of products like the Amsoil dual remote bypass system is something that is hard to come by. I can't help but wonder if someone with this system who is getting low UOA results, if the low oil pressure is contributing to increased engine wear but the bypass filter is removing the wear metals giving a false reading; who knows maybe your bearings and cams are now in your bypass filter?”
IF this turns out to be an Engineering flaw (vs. mfr. Batch issue) I have an Engineering solution or two in mind, all have drawbacks but none as serious as the current design. The real PR (and legal) problem is as I see it Amsoil should come up with some non-BS answers or redesign/drop the thing. Anyhow, I suspect it is NOT by random that Bob decided to test these. Inside word is that Bob was “on to” this pressure drop issue (via the posts, obviously and his desire, of course, to sell more Shaefer’s oil) Also, there are oil analysis’ that are not greatly improved and sometimes worsened by filter set-up – real engine data, not just lab stuff.
Gear Oil GL-4 Applications
I think the Series 2000 75W-90/140 gear oils are pretty great products (although I’m not sure why the need to cost more than Redline’s offerings). However, both the analysis and the shift feel feedback is telling me this stuff is NOT the ticket for many GL-4 manual gear boxes.
Solution should be fairly apparent: Either stop recommending it for such gearboxes and/or come out with a new product similar to Redline MTL. Small market, I know.
Universal ATF and Chrysler ATF+4
Amsoil ATF is the best on the market. I’ll stand toe to toe with any Dexron application, any test GM or ASTM or otherwise, any time of the year!
Then step in some “specialized” fluids, well maybe not that specialized – ATF+4. I’ll be the first to claim that some of the Daimler-Benz AT’s have just been garbage, and fixes through creative ATF are a band-aid at best. The medium level savvy customer knows that it is improbable that any ATF could meet all the different car AT specifications, (especially those such as ATF+4 that REQUIRE the exact DC formulation) and despite words from Amsoil Corporate, the situation is not getting more rosy when people report their AT’s slipping in Jeeps, minivans, etc after switching to our ATF and Amsoil tells them to add a bottle of Lubegard! We take a lot of heat here.
I know we can come closer to the DC formulation, (violation or not?) but this will require a separate product (again). Solution: another ATF product for DC, or maybe 2 more – Mercon V and a DC ATF+ - ATF +4 products.
Series 2000 0W-30 Motor Oil (and other motor oils)
TSO hardly comes close to making it to 20,000 miles in healthy cars. I can’t even defend it, and I will not lie to customers about our products. The product rarely makes it to 10,000 miles without severe TBN depletion, oxidation and nitration numbers through the roof and wear metals not looking good – not to mention the related viscosity increase. Again, check the used oil analysis section of www.bobistheoilguy.com it’s a gold mine of information. And if we want to insist Bob is making all the numbers up we can go down that ill advised path, but what about the analyses’ you are seeing? Are they all great Action News material? I think not, because people have given this information to Amsoil (mainly because they think they didn’t get their value for the $8.35/qt). Now this may really make you angry: It almost appears that this oil (TSO) was not adequately tested in real world applications. If not for the 12 months – we would have an even larger mess. I have to say it is almost laughing stock material.
What is the feedback customers get from Amsoil? “Must be something wrong with your engine”, “Blackstone who uses 1940’s technology” or something other than improving the oil;
“From: [email protected]
To:
Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:10:32 -0500
Who did the analysis? What was the engine condition? What is the mileage? Was their glycol present? Is there an emissions problem causing nitration? Can you explain that? Seems to be a whole lot of missing info. The testing methods we use are ASTM certified and can be duplicated in ANY lab using these methods. (with maybe the exception of Blackstone who uses 1940's technology). We have not seen this oil. Unless this is just hearsay we sure would like to see a sample.
Thank you.”
The other oils do a tad better. The HDD does OK. The standard ATM and ASL are pretty darn good value, but how often do they make it to 25,000 miles without severe oxidation and TBN reduction? Sure the ASL did OK in the shoot out with Mobil 1 in our tests, and the ATM did good in the engine sequence test – but the analysis are saying it’s not making it to 25,000 miles. Also take a look at this shoot-out:
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
Will the ASL (I supplied) hold up as well as the 5W-30 Mobil1? I hope so! This is NOT BOB running this test. This guy is very friendly to me and has NOTHING to do with Bob.
Solutions:
Part 1: Reformulation of the oils. Look at the ASTM D 4742 TFOUT Oxidation resistance testing and the formulations of the top tier competition. Don’t rule out modern Mo and B additives. Basically beef up the additive package – for a top tier oil, at top dollar, the Amsoil additives just aren’t cutting it.
Part 2: Seriously change the extended OCI recommendation, wording and preparation information. The drain interval table is OK, but needs updating and expansion. It just is not safe, especially with the 35,000 mile recommendation without more detailed disclaimers, “how to” and precise information by and for (at least) engine mfr and type. As far as the Amsoil solvent flush goes, it’s just OK, but doesn’t really clean much of the old acid forming, oxidized crud and varnish out. I suggest a better pre-cleaning process with products similar to Auto-Rx. (that Frank guy is starting to make some serious cash with his product, despite his early manufacturing flaws). Informed consumers are more and more wary of dumping solvent type flushes in their engines, despite words on paper. This will help with the early TBN killing we see with first Amsoil motor oil fills – which again should not be recommended as super extended OCI’s.
Well that’s about it. I know this is not a popular thing. You could just toss me out as a dealer. So be it, because I like to think I’m dealing with/for a company that handles the truth and improves. Amsoil, now more than ever, needs products that can excel over Redline, Royal Purple, Schaeffers, Mobil 1, and the other niche top tier oils. I suspect the answer will be: Amsoil has sold 1,000’s of systems and 1,000’s of gallons of lubes and we have no complaints or the complaints were invalid. Al – I challenge you to not let this pat answer fly.
A six page letter and not one gripe about the API labeling scheme.
Please let me know what you think.
Thank you,
Paul A. Seminara
Dealer #515729
Cell: (360) 319-1721
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It's hard to sell a product when you "question" some of it's abilities and or company strategy.
They need more "Real World" testing, for example, the S2k oil. Most over priced, over rated oil I can think of. 99% of the time M1,ASL,ATM,GC or Schaeffer's will match or beat this oil for much less $$. Their marketing is lame and just flat out ridiculous. They think that showing a 4 ball wear scar means their oils protect better...please. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon}
Nice try AJ you dope. A more professional approach is needed. Too many dealers out there are just clueless. Those are my complaints. They do make some fine oils though as well. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon}
[ February 10, 2004, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
