A hurting 4T60-E, help me make it last...

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Well, I guess it would be best if I started my story from the top:

I drive a 1997 Monte Carlo LS, with the Hydramatic 4T60-E transmission, mated to the GM 3100 V6 engine. In the past I've found it to be a powerful and reliable combination. However, until it came under my ownership 2 years ago at 114K miles, it didn't recieve what I would call the best of care. (As a note, the car now has 138K miles).

I bought the car from my father when he decided that he wanted to join the SUV scene with a new Jeep Grand Cherokee V8. I knew he treated it well, but he isn't too rigorous with overall maintenance. His idea of maintenance was just to change the oil every 3,000 miles with a Fram (ugh) filter and the cheapest oil on sale. I've since change to Delco Ultraguard Gold filters and Castrol GTX (no sense in Synthetic in an engine running on dino its whole life, at least in my opinion). Anyway, some moron at GM decided to put in the owners manual "Transmission fluid never needs to be changed under normal service". Naturally, my father never deemed it necessary to change the transmission fluid for that 114K miles. The car was working well, so I just kept driving it and it was running fine, shifting smooth, no slipping or any other problems, at least until late last year.

On a casual drive one cool winter day, I was making an aggressive (but not insane) pass on the highway, so I gave it some gas to do the 4->2 downshift and pass a car. It shifted out of 4th fine, but it never managed to engage 2nd, it just revved up as if it were in neutral. I took my foot off the gas and slowly applied it, and it went back into gear (back in 4th). I shrugged it off as a glitch and went on with my life.

Well, this started to happen more and more often, until one day on a trip back up to school (a 100 mile drive to Northern NY) the transmission made a few random grinding noises and the Service Engine Soon light came on. I was only 20 miles into my trip, so I turned around to see if I could get the car home without a tow truck. I managed to drive it home, with it making weird noises and shifting erratically the whole way, but it made it none the less. I parked the car in the lawn and proceeded to get a ride back up to school with a friend.

The car sat at home for about a month, and wasn't touched at all in this period. I am at this point home for winter break, and decide its time to deal with the problem. I take the car out for a drive to get the SES light read at the local mechanic, and it is driving and shifting fine. The code read simply as "transmission slippage". Since the car was shifting fine (with the exception of slipping in 2nd) I didn't want to get the transmission completely rebuilt at great expense. Rather I opted to change the fluid and add a transmission cooler.

What I found when I changed the fluid was not pretty, and since a picture is worth a thousand words:

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The fluid was completely burned up and smelled absolutely awful. There was a ton of clutch pack material in the pan (obviously) and the magnet was completely full. I cleaned the pan out completely, cleaned the magnet, changed the transmission filter with an AC part and refilled the 11 quart total capacity unit with approximately 8 quarts of fluid. I used Valvoline MaxLife Dexron III ATF. I reset the PCM, the SES was out for a few days and it seemed to be shifting marginally better, but then a week later SES returned so I decided the cooler was in order.

I installed an Imperial Automotive (rebranded Hayden) 11x11 stacked plate cooler, rated I believe at 30,000 GWVR, way more than what is necessary for my 3,200lb Monte Carlo. You can see that here:

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The SES light has not since returned, but it seems like the problem is slowly getting worse. If I try and shift out of 2nd too aggressively (e.g. more than 3,500~4,000 RPM) it will just pop out of gear. Also, I was climbing a hill in 2nd at about 3,300 and during the hill climb it just popped out of gear and I had to put my foot down on the gas to get it into first and back on its way. I've also noticed that when I check my transmission fluid, there is a glaze of what seems to be clutch pack material on the dip-stick, which can't be good.

So I ask this: What can I do to get this thing to stop eating the 2nd gear clutches? All of the other gears work fine, and I can WOT all day long revving it up to 6K in 3rd shfting into 4th and it works just fine, feels like brand new. I've since stopped driving agressively (I don't abuse the car, but I do drive agressively. e.g. It's not uncommon for me to rev it up on the highway for passing, or take it up to around 4.5K~5K every now and then during acceleration from I stop. I definately DO NOT do anything stupid, like burn outs, race the motor in a low gear, continuously WOT out of every red light, etc.

I was thinking perhaps an application of Auto-RX, but obviously Auto-RX can't replace worn hard parts. I guess the real question I have is what caused the 2nd clutch to wear out. I "abuse" 3rd->4th much more than I do 1->2 or 2->3, yet those shifts are fine. Part of my thinking with the transmission cooler was that the clutch wore out because maybe the transmission was overheating.

When it comes down to it, the transmission needs a full rebuild and a fresh start with some Synthetic ATF and maybe 20,000~25,000 mile change interval. No more of this factory fluid lasting for 135K business. For now though, what can I do to help this thing last until a rebuild is more feisable. (No time or money during the year being a college student)
 
I have to say right away that I'm not a transmission expert and my claims should not be taken as an absolute truth. From what I've read and heard here and other places:

If transmission starts to slip or act strangely there is basically no way to fix it by simply changing a fluid or putting in additives. I think that for your situation rebuild is the only way especially considering the mileage and the time transmission went without ATF change. Some people here state and give examples that GM transmissions will fail at around 100k miles if fluid has not been changed regularly. Don't be sad - the rumor is (and many facts clearly support this claim) that Ford and Chrysler transmissions are much worse.

My personal opinion is that adding a cooler wouldn't help anything if car has more than 60k-75k miles (and fluid has been changed at least once) - it seems like most of the wear had already accrued by that time. Only regular fluid changes can extend transmission life after this point. Even VW, Audi, MB transmissions, which use synthetic ATF as factory fill, still fail at around 60-120k miles (depending on the model and abuse from the owner) if ATF has not been changed at 40-50k mile intervals.

I had a problem with bad transmission shifting in Kia Sportage, but rebuild was not required because fluid was changed at 45k miles and drained-refilled once at 60k miles. I must mention that Sportage has a factory installed auxiliary cooler, thus ATF changes can be slightly extended compared to the cars without the cooler. I fixed it simply by changing ATF thoroughly. See: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000714


Regards,

[ February 08, 2004, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: Titanium_Alloy ]
 
1st, you'd need to locate the tranny service manual and test all the tranny solenoids and sensors. If all OK, then buy and install a shift improver kit. This will help this blown transmission live longer and will make the rebuilt one that you will soon need last longer too.

B&M/transgo/kennedydiesel/...... make shift kits. A good tranny shop can also upgrade the tranny(all GM tsbs, sonnax/transtec/atra/atsg bulletins...) during the rebuild so that it lasts longer.

Also, avoid those 4-2 downshifts.

A bottle of lubegard might help. But 100k+miles on original ATF is abuse.

[ February 08, 2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: unDummy ]
 
Ah, the familiar sight..

I just did a pan-drop on my 4T65E-HD yesterday. Magnet was a little more covered than i'd like to see in the 25k since last one. But.. whatcha gonna do.

If the pan is still off, i would really suggest putting in a drain plug. I put one in yesterday and it should make the whole ordeal a LOT simpler. Just gotta remember to put it over on the magnet area, or else it'll hit the solenoid section or the filter.

Question, though. Why does your car have a standard 4-2 shift? At least in the 65E world, the 4-2 is an 'upgrade' by an aftermarket PCM. Otherwise it'll drop 4-3, then after a second or two, do the 3-2. Seems odd that yours does it 'out of the box'.

ferb!
 
Well, to start off by answering your question, no, it doesn't actually do a direct 4->2 downshift, but the time it spends in 3rd gear is negligible if you give it enough gas where the PCM decides that 2nd is appropriate. It doesn't waste any time in 3rd gear, is what I am trying to say. The difference is, if I do a 3->2 downshift, it usually doesn't require as much throttle as a 4->2 does, so it won't slip.

While a drain plug is a good idea, I think its worth it to get the pan out each time so I can replace the filter, and clean out any of the metal shavings that have found their way to the magnet and to the bottom of the pan. In addition it has a reusable gasket, so its not too big of a deal to drop the pan. I typically just unbolt one side, then slowly pry it off so it can drain into a pan, then take the pan all the way off.

I didn't really think that there were any additivies that might help it, maybe some kind of friction modifier was I guess what I had in mind. I know all the solenoids are good because the shifts are performing OK when they do, and its not throwing an SES. (The wonder of OBD II) I am not going to try and get this transmission rebuilt until at least the summer, and if it were not for my desire to take a 6,000 mile road trip with this car during the winter of 2004-05, then I would probably just drive it until it drops. It seems to be holding on well enough for now, and most all of the miles I do while I'm at school are highway and are spent in 3rd/4th (coming home usually every 2nd weekend).
 
quote:

Originally posted by mstrjon32:

While a drain plug is a good idea, I think its worth it to get the pan out each time so I can replace the filter, and clean out any of the metal shavings that have found their way to the magnet and to the bottom of the pan.


I'm with ya on seeing the pan, but dropping the pan for me left just as much fluid on the ground as it did in my catch pan. By adding the drain plug, i'm able to pull ~7.25 quarts out "cleanly" and then drop the pan and change the filter more easily.

Plus, i'll probably end up doing more fluid-only changes in addition to my yearly filter swap. 6-months on the fluid, 12-months on the filter. Shouldn't hurt any.

ferb!
 
There is not miracle cure for worn out trans. It will never get any better. It only a matter of time before it goes. Fix it now and you might be able to rebuild it, wait too long and you will needed a remanufactured trans. I have seen people nurse it along and then one day it dies, just like that.

The trans in my 1995 Park Ave started slipping. I let is go for about 2,000 miles and then one day it started getting real bad, had to take off in a hurry to avoid another car and the trans started slipping so bad I could hardly move. Had to spend $3,500 for a GM reman. trans.
 
it sounds like (to me at least) the valve body needs to be inspected/cleaned and all the soleniods checked. if the tranny seems to shift up fine and hold each gear fine then it seems to me that the "gears" are fine, but it doesn't downshift properly so it sounds like a control problem.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Mike:
The trans in my 1995 Park Ave started slipping. I let is go for about 2,000 miles and then one day it started getting real bad, had to take off in a hurry to avoid another car and the trans started slipping so bad I could hardly move. Had to spend $3,500 for a GM reman. trans.

Unfortunately it isn't really feisable for me to get the thing rebuilt right now, as I am a poor (very poor) college student, and money is extremely tight. It kind of needs to last until the summer, when I'll have a much more significant cash flow going on, and I can afford to get it rebuilt. I don't see why, though, just driving it as it is would cause it to be "unrebuildable", I figure the worst that will happen is the 2nd gear clutch will get bad enough to the point where it no longer catches and 2nd gear stops working. All the clutch packs get replaced anyway when the transmission gets rebuilt.

As long as the "N" still works, if this car were ever to need a $3500 lump sum repair, I'd sooner just push it off a cliff. I don't know if the car is even worth that anymore, despite that fact it is in really good shape (outside of, duh, the transmission).

Also, I don't know if I mentioned this in my original post, but it's not a control problem. A few weeks ago while I was up at school I was doing a moderate RPM hill climb in 2nd and it just popped out of gear while I was driving, and it was definately not attempting to make any kind of gear switch. Based on what I've seen in the pan and the way it responds, the clutch pack is what is gone.
 
Well just as a little update, today I noticed for the first time how severe my drivetrain power losses are.

I had just dropped my dad off at the mechanic so he could pick his car up, and on my way home I decided for better or worse to get on my car a little bit. I was only giving it about 60% throttle as I was accelerating through first, but the engine revved way up to 5500 (redline at 6000, typically shifts out at 5800 if you open it wide) and I did was not definately not going the approximately 32-35 mph that I should be if the engine was turning that fast in first. At 60% throttle I'd expect it to shift out around 4000-4200.

I guess this is just another sign that things are awry in my transmission...*sigh*.
 
Not to scare you or anything but a coworkers trans in his Chevy truck was very much like that. He kept putting off getting it fixed nursing it around because he needed the truck every day for work albeit only 5 miles run and it would seem to work good when it was cold. One Saturday the wife sent him to the store for some things and he never came back right away. Picked up the groceries and went to leave. No can move in any gear, trans was gone just like that. Closest GM dealer was 60 miles away and he had it towed there. The bill came to over 3g but Chevy most all of it except the towing. He was about 5,000 mile off warranty.
 
here's what I did for my 92 mits mirage 4 speed ELC automatic. In 1998 at apprx 62k miles, I bought the car. Transmission fluid was black, car shifted good. What can I say, I didn't know any better, I was only 20. anyway, I drove it like that for four months and from the fluid being black and oxidized a seal took a beating and my transmission started leaking excessively on a hill. At the time, I didn't know I was leaking because I left on a saturaday night at 2am and it was pitch black when I left. Anyway, an ex g/f dad fixed the seal for me which stopped the tranny fluid leak completely. However, I did some damage driving on low transmission fluid. the car suffered from rough upshifts in 1st gear and reverse bangs loudly.
Here's what I did: Every year since I changed transmission fluid. in one year, the fluid turned cherry red to a brownish color. The fluid is still running too hot. this for only 12k miles a year. Then I researched about transmission coolers keeping the transmission fluid cooler. So I bought the biggest transmission cooler I could find and installed in my car. At the same time, I changed aamco tranny fluid over to redline D4 atf with lubeguard (red bottle) This has helped a ton with upshifts. I still have some slight hesitation of upshifts but it's tolerable. I asked a transmission expert about my transmission and he said it sounded like worn internal seals. So I'm running auto rx in the transmission to rejuvenate the seals. I'm still looking for improved shift quality as you can tell. I must be doing something right because this transmission has had rough upshifts for 5.5 years and 50k miles later. The shifting out of first gear has improved so much that it's tolerable. hope this helps
 
You've given me a little more hope, sounds like we are kind of on the same track with maintaining them.

If yours can hold on for another 50K, I'm hopeful mine can hold on until this summer when I can afford a full rebuild with HD parts to hold up to my heavy foot and fill her up with synthetic ATF and change it regularly.
 
That's all folks. It died Monday afternoon about 4pm.

I had managed to get my first ever speeding ticket the night before (and long overdue, I might add) so I got in the car after class to drive to the DMV and get a driver abstract to bring to court with me.

Well, I got in, turned the key, the engine started up normally and the cluster looked fine. I backup in my parallel parking space, then place the shifter into OD and proceed to pull out into traffic. I start to accelerate and I notice that the engine seems to be working really hard for moving so slowly. I look down and see that the speedo says "0" and the RPM's are running about 4500. This was definately way off considering that at 4500, even in first I should be moving along at 25-30mph, but I was moving no more than 10-15. I pulled over, put the car in park then back in drive, and tried to accelerate once again. It bucked hard, and then wouldn't go anywhere. I turned it off, cursed for a bit, then started it back up and checked the fluid level, which was a touch low. I topped it off for the **** of it, and then tried to drive it again. When I put it in gear it started in 3rd, and was stuck there. Good enough, I though, I can at least get the thing home this weekend.

I decided that while it was in 3rd, I would try and take it to the auto parts store and dump a bottle of Lucas' transmission fix in there. This turned out to be helpful, but very counterproductive. At first, after I put it in, it started driving and shifting through all of the gears, but then got stuck in 3rd again. The next day I tried to drive it again to see what was up, and it started in first. It took me about 20 minutes of riding the pedal at different pressures to get it out of first. It tried to shift into second, but at this point second gear was completely gone. It just hopped back into first and threw the SES (surprisingly it hadn't thrown the SES again until now). After some coaxing, I managed to get it to stick in 3rd again. Tomorrow I am going to try and drive it home 100 miles, as I really have no other way to get the car home.

So it didn't last quite as long as I'd hoped it would, but I've got a temporary beater lined up (a 1986 Honda Prelude 5-speed) that should hold me over until the summer, when I plan to "live the W-body dream" and do the L67 swap along with a 4T65-E HD and get the Monte back on the road.
 
I wonder how many more stories like this one need to be told before the manufacturers stop trying to sell everyone on the idea of eternal ATF that never wears out. Maybe if you never drive above 50 mph and live in a place where the temps never go outside the range of 40F-80F your ATF will never need to be changed. How many drivers fall into that category??? My 2003.5 V-6 Camry, driven for 32,000 miles in the hot, hot south had pretty well done in its ATF when I had it flushed and replaced last week.
 
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