99 Toyota Sienna - Garbage in drained oil

[ToyotaNSaturn]

Just changed our 99 Toyota Sienna V6 today and let the oil drain for about an hour from a warm engine. I've been using M1 5w30 for 3300 miles and will send out UOA tomorrow, results to follow shortly....

I use an aluminum 6qt tin pan to drain the oil in. Today, I noticed a silver-dollar sixed mound of black sludge and goo. Also, the bottom of the drain pan was moderately covered with large grains of ???...I don't know what they were, but they looked like large salt crystals. I always let the oil drain for an extended time to get as much junk out of the bottom of the oil pan as possible. (I think I succeeded today!). I've never seen so much junk, ever, in the drain pan as I did today!

I've run 4 Neutra treatments with Chevron Supreme prior to going M1 a few months back. By the 3rd Neutra treatment, it took almost 1000 miles for the oil to start chaning color as, what I thought, most of the crud had already been flushed out.

The motor oil on this car has been changed at least once every 3K , it has 45K on it now. The last 10K has seen MANY changes.

By the looks of things, it looks like this engine is falling apart, or at least feels that way! What gives? I bought a 96 Saturn that needed TLC with the oil changes and sees no where near as much junk in the drain pan at oil change time...

Thanks for reading my long message. Any suggestions on what is coming out of the engine? Are these motors THAT prone to sludge? I guess I'm looking for a vote of confidence that it's worth spending the time and $$ on this engine to make it last. I should have kept the Windstar if I knew how much problem this vehicle would be! (Ok, maybe not...)

Thanks,
Mike

 

[GSV]

ToyotaNSaturn,

Yes, the V6 in the Sienna is one of the sludge prone engines Toyota turned out.

If you have enough documentation that proves your oil change intervals are in spec with what Toyota recommends contact your dealer.

The alternative would be to try to treat this yourself.

If you've already tried Neutra 131 you may want to try Auto-RX. Follow the instructions and when you're done go back to using the Mobil 1. I bet the sludge that came out was a result of Mobil 1 cleaning your engine.

I have a 4Runner with the 3.4 V6 that has had a steady diet of Mobil 1 and lately Redline. When I did an Auto-RX treatment the Auto-RX had nothing to clean. (but I felt better having tried it).

If the dealer won't work with you I'm sure someone on this board can suggest a way to go over their heads.

Good Luck!

 

[Jelly]

If your using Mobil1, and changing it on anywhere half-way decent intervals, then your Toyota is not going to sludge up.

I would just continue to run Mobil1...or better yet, a HDEO 5w-40 that will "clean" better and hold more contaminants in suspension (Detergent/Dispersant Package).

 

[ruking77]

In my humble opinion, I would see what I could do to get the sludge situation looked at. In all fairness, what is probably happening is there are specific areas in the engine which cook the engine oil that because of probable poor oil circulation and/or just plain high heat. Conventional oil cokes at a lower point and also leaves residue known as sludge. While Mobil One does not leave near the sludge and has a higher temp point, if the engine operates at this higher temperature the Mobil One will still burn off. If the answer after they either provide a new engine or do a Bosch power flush is to change the oil more frequently, basically what they are recommending is to live with the coking (cooking) oil situation. I have been a buyer of Toyota's since 1985 but in all fairness my 4 cylinder Toyota Camry coked up and in fact it got so hot that metal failure in the upper manifold caused the oil to spew from a hole caused by metal failure and it warped the head gasket, values etc. This of course happened on the south side of the "WARRANTY" period so I had to eat the 2200 dollar cost of repairs. At the same time the Toyota Dealer technicians showed me the innards and with almost total use of Castrol GTX, with app 3,000 mile oil and filter change intervals, the areas were highly sludged. I didn't have any data points to correlate it with so I chalked it up erroneously to it being "my problem. " A so called "benefit" was I was exposed to Toyota's secret warranty for drive line replacement. They changed the pads, rotors, axle shafts, did a total alignment etc free of charge. I sold this vehicle shortly after the innards face lift, with app 95k miles.

I have had Toyota I-6's (inline 6 cylinder) and have run Mobil One 5w30 for MANY miles @ 15,000 mile oil and filter change intervals with absolutely no problems.

[ October 20, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: ruking77 ]

 

[tadaima]

Btw What 4cyl Camry did you have? I have a 2000 5sfe engine.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jelly:
*-*-*-
I would just continue to run Mobil1...or better yet, a HDEO 5w-40 that will "clean" better and hold more contaminants in suspension (Detergent/Dispersant Package).

---

Ditto
Ditto
Ditto
In addition, that neutra sounded like it did
some help, huh?
It works slower from what I understand, so it will take longer to get all the crud out.
I sell similar products, but not to individuals, and I have seen as much as 13-18K before it got all the syuff out, because it cleans slow, just the way you wan't it to clean.
I have taken free of charge just for my info, a mans engine with Visible sludge ib the oil hole, and made a special brew for two oil drains of 3K,
He thought his car was going to die, after the treatments his engine is like new inside, runs smoother and gets better performance. He had I think 160-170K, and now he says that his oil doesn't turn dark for several thousnad miles instead of a day or two!!! Hummm!
I would continue to clean, and monitor with oil testing. IMO, it is better to have a super clean engine than to let anything build-up!, even if it means bumping up to a thicker oil.
As to you ToyotaNSaturn, I've seen some nasty crud come out of used cars I got, and as long as it's soundly running and MPG is still up there, I would not worry. Just pay attention to the next two or three Oil Tests!

 

[GSV]

ruking77,

quote:

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I have had Toyota I-6's (inline 6 cylinder) and have run Mobil One 5w30 for MANY miles @ 15,000 mile oil and filter change intervals with absolutely no problems.

---

Landcruisers?

 

[JohnBrowning]

That is too bad that Toyota put out a few lemons for a couple of years!!! My Family has owned almost exclusively Toyotas since 1970's on up! We have never had an engine sludge!
I would either keep useing the nuetra 131 or get some Auto-Rx to try in their. I belive the new interval is up to 1500 miles.

You might also consider Lube COntrol. Lube COntrol LC is very reasonable and can be used at each oil change as an additive or a purge!

 

[DockHoliday]

I find this interesting. On another recent thread, there was speculation that the European car companies put higher quality oil in a the factory than do NA companies. Could something similar be occuring with Toyota? That is, with the oil used in Japan, there is not a sludge problem, but here in NA, there is a problem?

 

[mormit]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DockHoliday:
I find this interesting. On another recent thread, there was speculation that the European car companies put higher quality oil in a the factory than do NA companies. Could something similar be occuring with Toyota? That is, with the oil used in Japan, there is not a sludge problem, but here in NA, there is a problem?

---

I thought the N.A. and Japanese oil specs were more in sync with each other (GF-3 regulations) and the Europeans were the retentive oddball (ACEA).

[ October 21, 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: mormit ]

 

[Grossomotto]

Not trying to be a smartaxx, but did you start with a clean drain pan?

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

quote:

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Originally posted by Grossomotto:
Not trying to be a smartaxx, but did you start with a clean drain pan?

---

I thought I did...About 6 drains ago I started with the Neutra and Chevron. There was a lot of junk in the drain pan. A few Neutra/Chevron treatments later, much less junk...almost zero. The previous drain of M1 10w30 a couple months ago showed very little junk. This last change had a host of crap in the drain pan. I was taken by surprise to see all that stuff after seeing the trend towards less and less visible material in the drain pan.

I'm totally convinced that if I didn't stumble upon this board many months ago, that engine would have seized up already. And that's with 3K changes for the life of this engine!

 

[ToyotaNSaturn]

Jelly,
I used to believe that by using M1, the engine wouldn't sludge up. Maybe I'm being nearsighted now, but M1 5w30's flash point has changed. It used to be 455F, but now it shows as 435F on their web site. I'll be using 10w30 after this drain.

BTW, their web site used to show M1's 10w30 FP as 455F, but now shows as 471F. Is this bad quality control or are these recently changed numbers more accurate? Since the cSt@100C is 10.0 for both, I'll only be using M1 10w30, and I have 2 jugs to use up!

Now, If I could just FIND M1 5w40. I've seen it nowhere around here...along with Chevron Supreme Full Synth...


Robbie Alexander,
I will be keeping up the cleaning and monitoring the oil with more UOAs in the future. I guess that's one the one sure-fire way to tell I'm what's going on in there.

 

[Grossomotto]

Yeah, imagine some hourly wage dude at Jiffy Lube never telling you have all that material in your oil, at perhaps 5K changes!!