94 Honda Accord LX (130k) cranks normal, no start

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antiqueshell

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Hopefully Tegger will chime in. LOL


Car has been operating perfectly fine, no signs of any issues over the past year.

Drove home from work 10 miles parked car.

Tried start car 24 hours later, and it cranks as normal, no odd/unusual sounds. Did not show any signs of even beginning to start after a number of attempts.

Immediately noticed that CEL lamp stayed on solid even when turning the key only to accessory position. Also pretty sure that I did not hear any sign of fuel pump priming or relay clicks.

I disconnected the battery cable thinking that the ECU needed to be reset.

Noticed that "D4" lamp flashed this time did not before I disconnected the batt cable, odd though because the trans has been working fine. Could the trans computer keep the car from starting???

Only one other thing crossed my mind. About a year ago or so, I noticed that on rare occasion when starting the car would take an extra second or two to turn over compare to normal, this lasted for a few months and then the problem disappeared also did not set any CEL lamp warnings.

I have been told the common issues could be

Main Relay-- I inspected and saw one slightly suspect soldier joint. Have not repaired it yet.

Distributor igniter

ECU...


Honda experts welcome. Thanks!
 
Check for spark. Cam sensor failure is common which means replace distributor on most (I'm not sure if cam sensor is replaceable on that year).
 
Would that sensor allow the car to continue to run even failed as long as the car was already running?

The fact that the CEL lamp is on solid, even when I jumpered it to access codes makes me think it is something else.

I will check for spark.


Just logic is telling me that since the car was running fine until shut down makes me think something directly related to starting.
 
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Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Would that sensor allow the car to continue to run even failed as long as the car was already running?

The fact that the CEL lamp is on solid, even when I jumpered it to access codes makes me think it is something else.

I will check for spark.


Just logic is telling me that since the car was running fine until shut down makes me think something directly related to starting.


CEL isn't always related to a no start condition. Just like with anything electronic it can work when it pleases, and may allow the engine to run once it starts.
 
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Thanks beast3300.

Hope you don't think I am discounting your advice, I'm just tying to learn the cause and effect of these things. Keep the great info coming and I will check for spark.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Thanks beast3300.

Hope you don't think I am discounting your advice, I'm just tying to learn the cause and effect of these things. Keep the great info coming and I will check for spark.


You're welcome, not at all, you're ok.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Does this car have a main relay? Some hondas do. Check.



Yes, I removed it and checked the internal soldiered joints which can be a source of issues. Only found one suspect joint, I will resolder it tomorrow.
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Is the CEL supposed to illuminate in the ACC position!?


Yes, if you have normal operation the CEL lamp will light and extinguish after two or so seconds when key is left in acc position.

Mine is staying lit solid on acc, and when I jumpered the service port connector I received NO codes from the CEL lamp I did receive flash codes from the D4 tranny lamp but I have to recheck because I didn't know it displayed numbered flash codes.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Tried start car 24 hours later, and it cranks as normal, no odd/unusual sounds. Did not show any signs of even beginning to start after a number of attempts.

When you crank and the engine does not start, does the tachometer needle jiggle just a little bit, or is it dead still?

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Immediately noticed that CEL lamp stayed on solid even when turning the key only to accessory position.

The CEL should NOT come on at Accessory (I). It should come on for two seconds then go off at ON (II).

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Also pretty sure that I did not hear any sign of fuel pump priming or relay clicks.

Key OFF,
1) put your hand on the Main Relay. Yes, your hand; don't rely on your ears.
2) Turn the key to II. The Check Engine light should illuminate, and you should simultaneously feel a click from the Main Relay.
3) Two seconds later, the CEL should go off, and you should simultaneously feel another click from the Main Relay.
4) Turn the key to III. AS the starter engages, you should FEEL a THIRD click from the Main Relay (this click is very hard to hear).

Any of those clicks missing? CEL behaves differently from the above? If different, supply ACCURATE DETAILS!

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Noticed that "D4" lamp flashed this time did not before I disconnected the batt cable, odd though because the trans has been working fine. Could the trans computer keep the car from starting???

No. Check for error codes.

How to check for error codes: Locate 2-pin Service Check connector (I think it's gray) just behind top of passenger kick panel, ahead of door, below dash. Use paper clip to short the two pins together, then turn the ignition key to II and count the blinks of the Check Engine light; you may encounter both long and short in any combination; multiple codes are separated by a 2-second pause.
 
Thanks for answering Tegger!

It's late now, but tomorrow I'll do the other checks you suggested.

However I am certain that upon turning the key to accessory position the CEL lamp stays lighted steadily does NOT go out after any amount of time with the key in that position.

I noticed this change the first time I attempted to start the car with the car behaving completely normal the previous time it was started an run.

Upon jumpering the service port (two pin blue connector under the dash) that again the CEL light stayed on steadily and would not flash any codes. Then I noticed that the D4 indicator was flashing fast a number of times.

I know that someone else sent me to a decent diagnostic tut that indicated that a steadily lit CEL lamp could mean that the main ECU itself was malfunctioning. Is this so?

One more thing which fuse is for ECU memory in my car? I know that earlier models had a dedicated ECU memory fuse in the under the hood fuse/relay box.

It will be interesting to reconnect the battery tomorrow because it has been disconnected for 48 hours. Anything to be aware of when reconnecting the battery after this extended period of disconnection?
 
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Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
However I am certain that upon turning the key to accessory position the CEL lamp stays lighted steadily does NOT go out after any amount of time with the key in that position.

If the CEL illuminates at Accessory (setting I), then something is VERY WRONG. The CEL should illuminate when you turn the key one more click, to setting II .

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Upon jumpering the service port (two pin blue connector under the dash) that again the CEL light stayed on steadily and would not flash any codes. Then I noticed that the D4 indicator was flashing fast a number of times.

That's also very bad.

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
steadily lit CEL lamp could mean that the main ECU itself was malfunctioning. Is this so?

Possibly. Increasing age and corrosion in these cars means more ECMs are going bad than previously. BUT...

You should check ALL the fuses in BOTH fuse boxes. And I mean ALL of them, even the ones you can't see through.

You also need to make sure that:
1) the ECM ground is connected at the thermostat housing;
2) the driver's side ground strap is connected between valve cover and shock tower;
3) the passenger-side ground cables are connected between block/transmission to body.

If you pull back the carpet in the passenger footwell and take a look at the ECM, is there any sign of corrosion on the surfaces of the cover or the ECM's body/connetors?

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
One more thing which fuse is for ECU memory in my car? I know that earlier models had a dedicated ECU memory fuse in the under the hood fuse/relay box.

It's the one at the very rear-inside corner of the engine compartment fuse box, the corner towards the middle of the car.

But, if you've had the battery disconnected, pulling the fuse will do nothing more than what was already accomplished by disconnecting the battery.

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Anything to be aware of when reconnecting the battery after this extended period of disconnection?

Depending on your model, your radio may no longer work unless you punch in the security code.
 
@Tegger:


Firstly I got the courage up to remove the main fuel relay from the car open the relay and inspect the printed circuit board and solder joints...I found ONE suspect connection that really didn't look THAT bad. I got out my soldering iron and proceeded to resolder the connection. I noticed that there were dark brown rings around some of the solder joints that looked OK as well, others looked perfect. What can this mean?

Re-installed the relay and proceeded to turn the car to ACC ....CEL light lighted for normal two seconds and went out. Car started as normal. Like nothing happened. So Tegger even though the car is operating normally now and there is no check engine light if I jumper the CEL service port will a pending code from that incident still be stored even though I disconnected the battery for 24 hours? I guess I also should ask SHOULD I jumper the Service port now that the car is operation fine now. I don't want to create another problem. My question is why didn't the CEL flash a code for the main fuel pump relay in the first place?


Checked grounds you mentioned and all looked pretty good. I removed them used fine grit sandpaper to polish both mounting points and reassembled just to be sure.

Regarding the ECU...it is directly at the front of the passenger footwell and not behind the kick panel in the model correct?

I was wondering when I inspect the ECM would it be a good idea to remove and re-seat the multi-pin connectors that are attached to the unit. to remove any slight tarnish on the contacts? or should I just leave it alone as long as the outward appearance looks OK?


Can't thank you enough.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I noticed that there were dark brown rings around some of the solder joints that looked OK as well, others looked perfect. What can this mean?

Did they look anything like these?

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Re-installed the relay and proceeded to turn the car to ACC

Sigh... No, you turned it to "II", which is ON, not ACC. ACC is "I".

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
if I jumper the CEL service port will a pending code from that incident still be stored even though I disconnected the battery for 24 hours?

Nope. ECM memory is cleared if you disconnect the battery for even 10 seconds.

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
why didn't the CEL flash a code for the main fuel pump relay in the first place?

Depends on exactly what went wrong with the Main Relay. Some cracks result in a Check Engine light, some don't.
See my link above for more information on Main Relay failures.

Maybe it's just my lack of experience, but I've yet to see a Main Relay that failed so as to produce a solidly-on Check Engine light. That's why I didn't suspect that originally.

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Regarding the ECU...it is directly at the front of the passenger footwell and not behind the kick panel in the model correct?

Yes.

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
or should I just leave it alone as long as the outward appearance looks OK?

Leave it alone.
 
Originally Posted By: Tegger
]Did they look anything like these?


The one joint did look like that. But also just outside of the round solder area there are thin, dark brown rings ...maybe it is just flux left over from the job done at the factory. They don't look like scorch marks though.

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Re-installed the relay and proceeded to turn the car to ACC
Quote:

Sigh... No, you turned it to "II", which is ON, not ACC. ACC is "I".


Sorry bout that. I tend to get into bad habits misnaming things occasionally. Will correct!

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
if I jumper the CEL service port will a pending code from that incident still be stored even though I disconnected the battery for 24 hours?

Nope. ECM memory is cleared if you disconnect the battery for even 10 seconds.
[/quote]

That's unfortunate, but I guess I should be glad the issue is resolved. But knowing my luck perhaps not. LOL
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
why didn't the CEL flash a code for the main fuel pump relay in the first place?


Quote:

Depends on exactly what went wrong with the Main Relay. Some cracks result in a Check Engine light, some don't.
See my link above for more information on Main Relay failures.

Maybe it's just my lack of experience, but I've yet to see a Main Relay that failed so as to produce a solidly-on Check Engine light. That's why I didn't suspect that originally.


With your experience I have a sinking feeling that my problem is not over ....yet.
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Regarding the ECU...it is directly at the front of the passenger footwell and not behind the kick panel in the model correct?

Yes.

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
or should I just leave it alone as long as the outward appearance looks OK?
Quote:

Leave it alone.


That's what I thought. Thanks.
 
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