'94 Civic, 268K, after head gasket

[wwalter]

Hi all, I'm back with nothing too earth-shattering to report, but requesting any comments you might feel inclined to post, and TIA if ya do!

The latest (2nd) oil analysis of my high-mileage Honda, along with corresponding numbers from the 1st, follows.

This was a short interval because I wanted to find out quickly if the head gasket operation was a success. Got the oil changed just after the new HG, and kept it for about 2500 miles, which I figured was long enough to show any signs of leakage, but short enough to minimize damage if there was.

Oil: Don't know. Whatever brand 5w30 the Honda dealership uses. Didn't inquire except as to weight (BTW, as I mentioned in an earlier post, they don't use 5w20 at all, even on new cars).
PLUS a little bit of Red Line 5W30 left over in the garage, plus a little Super Tech 10w30 mixed with Auto-RX, also a left-over. I guess you could consider this batch to have had a maintenance dose of A-RX.

Interval: 2512 miles
Make-up oil: About 0.5 quart, but not carefully measured.

Oil filter: Honda OEM. Don't know if Fram-sourced or other.

Lab: Blackstone. No TBN.

Misc.: I ran Auto-RX, two treatments, in between these two analyses.

code:

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5.6K OCI / 260K 2.5K OCI / 268K

Red Line 10w30 mystery 5w30

Aluminum: 3 5

Chromium: 1 2

Iron: 10 6

Copper: 4 2

Lead: 4 1

Tin: 1 0

Molybdenum: 535 85

Nickel: 0 0

Manganese: 1 0

Silver: 0 0

Titanium: 0 0

Potassium: 11 7

Boron: 22 14

Silicon: 23 14

Sodium: 23 10

Calcium: 3171 2244

Magnesium: 10 8

Phosphorus: 1154 924

Zinc: 1365 1086

Barium: 0 0

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Blackstone says there's no evidence of coolant in the oil, so it looks like the new gasket is holding. I'm going to return to Red Line with a longer OCI (circa 6K) and resample at the end to be sure. After that, I may start experimenting with various oil filters just for fun.

I'm wondering about the Al and Cr--they went up in absolute terms, and markedly up when measured ppm/mile. Any ideas why that might be? Sounds like upper-cylinder (piston/ring) wear?

Other wear metals look about the same, at least per mile, except lead, which seems to have fallen--woohoo!

Potassium and sodium looked a little high w/Red Line, but the consensus at the time was that they were additives. The only real evidence of HG failure was HCs in the cooling system and the failure of the coolant to return from the expansion tank overnight (oh, and a history of HG problems in this particular engine--seems they used inferior bolts, but I'm not complaining about 260K!)

Andy

 

[G-MAN]

Looks like this engine is good to go.

A bit off topic, but how many times have you had to replace the timing belt in that 260,000 miles? Every have one break?

 

[Al]

Yea..not much to say except you are back on track.

 

[wwalter]

G-Man,
The manual says every 90K, and I have pretty much kept to that schedule, pushing it a bit for the first replacement. Something like 95K, 185K, and just recently.

Never had one break, knock on all available wood.

Andy

 

[Al]

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt89:
Looks to me like more evidence that Honda makes awesome engines!

How did the HG deal come up - did you notice coolant in the oil, out the tailpipe?

I have a Chevy with the GM 3.4 so I have to live in constant vigilance to HG & manifold gasket failure...

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The nice thing is its not about worrying about if- its just the "when".

 

[Matt89]

Looks to me like more evidence that Honda makes awesome engines!

How did the HG deal come up - did you notice coolant in the oil, out the tailpipe?

I have a Chevy with the GM 3.4 so I have to live in constant vigilance to HG & manifold gasket failure...

 

[DynaSpeed]

quote:

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BTW, as I mentioned in an earlier post, they don't use 5w20 at all, even on new cars

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maybe I'm confused as to what you're saying, but Honda definitely uses 5-20 in the new cars. I've watched them put it in my motor.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by DynaSpeed:

quote:

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BTW, as I mentioned in an earlier post, they don't use 5w20 at all, even on new cars

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maybe I'm confused as to what you're saying, but Honda definitely uses 5-20 in the new cars. I've watched them put it in my motor.

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I think what he's saying is that his particular dealer doesn't use 5w20 when they do oil changes, even though that's what Honda requires.

 

[Matt89]

quote:

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The nice thing is its not about worrying about if- its just the "when".

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Right! hopefully just after I trade it in for an Accord!

quote:

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Oil: Don't know. Whatever brand 5w30 the Honda dealership uses. Didn't inquire except as to weight (BTW, as I mentioned in an earlier post, they don't use 5w20 at all, even on new cars).

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I sure wouldn't attribute the 5W-30 to some extreme commitment to vehicle longevity from the dealer. More like they didn't feel like managing multiple viscosities. I'm thinking American Honda would come down on them for this if they knew about it...

 

[wwalter]

Matt89,

For the HG trouble, the first thing I noticed was mild overheating (to c. 3/4 of the needle's range) at high speeds w/AC on. Later I noticed that most of the fluid was staying in the expansion tank, even after it should have been drawn back into the radiator. I think the low volume of fluid actually available to the cooling system was what led to the overheating.

After that, I got in the habit of pulling the tank out and refilling the radiator from it every morning before leaving, and sometimes in the p.m. as well.

Testing showed hydrocarbons in the cooling system, and sure enough, the HG was breached, apparently in several places. Overall, I think I caught the problem before any significant amount of coolant got into the oil (analysis showed none shortly before things came to a head (pun)), and luckily, I never had a severe overheating episode--the head was checked while off and needed no machining or other repair.

DynaSpeed,
G-Man's right--I'm only talking about this particular dealership. I was glad to hear the answer, though, because, although I'm reserving judgment on 5w20 in new cars, I definitely didn't want it in my car at 266K!

And yes, I'm assuming they have their own, not likely altruistic, reasons for sticking to 5W30 for now. *I'm* not going to turn them in, anyway.

All,
Does anyone have any ideas on the change in Al and Cr--up quite a lot in percentage/per mile terms? Maybe some dirt fell into the cylinder while it was open to the world, or what?

Thanks, all!
Andy

 

[wwalter]

Don't know why it didn't occur to me before, but maybe I know the reason behind the high Al and Cr.

For reasons I won't go into, I had the timing belt/water pump changed, and then a week later, I had the head gasket replaced. (I only mention this to show that the problem arose before the head gasket.) Immediately after the t-belt, I noticed that the car pinged *very* easily at highway speeds--even just leaving the cruise control set at 70-75, if I encountered a slight upgrade on the highway, it would start rattling.

I took it back within an hour of picking it up at the shop, and they stated the timing was fine, so I haven't been able to resolve the problem. (For now, I'm using 93 octane, which does the trick.)

Before switching octane, I tried to minimize the noise by easing off the gas as needed, but I couldn't always do that and keep up with traffic, so it still pinged a good bit. Is it possible that all the pinging was doing some damage to the piston/rings, leading to the much higher Al & Cr?

I wonder.

Andy

 

[wwalter]

No takers on my pinging theory?

 

[Jay]

I would guess that the Al and Cr may be abrasive wear from dirt. Your Si seems high for so few miles. What air filter are you using?

As for the pinging-- test the timing with a strobe light according to the manual. When the timing is correct the distributor should be adjusted approximately in the middle of it's range. If it has to be turned toward a stop to make it come in then the timing belt is probably one tooth off.

 

[wwalter]

Jay,

The air filter is OEM Honda, I believe. It was changed at the same time the head gasket was replaced, since I had most of the scheduled 270K service done while they had it in the shop.

One thing: In the past, I haven't been able to get at the air filter--there was one screw that was always so tight I had to give up on it before mangling the head too much. This time, I asked 'em to ease up on the air wrench (or whatever) and they promised to leave it looser. I haven't checked--I sure hope they didn't think they should leave it LOOSE!

I'm not sure about the precise timing of things, but it's possible that this batch of oil is the same one that was in the car while the head was off--guess I could have gotten a cloud of dust into the engine... But it's also possible the oil was changed after it was closed back up.

Anyway, I'd like to try your timing-check advice, but I'm a mere babe in the woods when it comes to anything more advanced than swapping the oil & filter. And of course, I don't have the tool you mentioned.

When I took it back and they claimed to have verified the timing, do you think they would have considered it correct even if the distributor had to be twisted a bit to get it to look right? Maybe just to save themselves the trouble of adjusting by one tooth (oops, is my cynicism showing)?

If the belt is off a tooth, am I hurting anything by continuing with the high-octane stuff, as long as I don't detect any pinging?

Thanks for your reply!
Andy

 

[wwalter]

I think I've been seeing some new names on the board recently, so I thought I'd run this question up the pole again and see what happens...

--Anyone have a theory on why the aluminum and chromium were up so much (per kmile)?
Candidates so far:
1) Excessive pinging damaging upper end a bit
2) Cloud of dust settled on the engine while the head was off.

(Oh, I checked the air filter--it's tight and there's nothing, and I mean nothing, on the walls of the air duct downstream of the filter. Good to see.)

TIA
***

 

[Ken4]

I think it is quite obvious from what you described, the new timing belt wasnt installed correctly. Adjusting the distributor to adjust spark advance or retard is not the solution in this case. When the cyl no. 1 is at TDC (compression stroke), the crank pulley mark must be at 0 deg. No exceptions. Take your mechanic for a spin, rev all the way up to 6000rpm, show him the pinging. If he only adjusts the distributor to retards the spark timing, you will have power loss. Take him for a spin again, rev to 6000rpm and show him how lethagic your car is. Insist they reinstall the timing belt.

 

[Jay]

Sorry wwalter, I didn't see your reply till just now. I agree with Ken 4. The smoking gun to your detonation problem is the timing belt or the timing adjustment. Get someone you trust to check it.

 

[wwalter]

Ken4 & Jay,

I'm also convinced the fault lies in the timing belt or related gear, given that it cropped up immediately after the change with no other work done. But when I took it back and had them check the timing, they claimed all was well.

Anyway, I agree that my next step must be to push them on that issue, possibly after having the timing checked elsewhere, and try to prove the point and have the belt adjusted. (After several visits over the past couple years, I was beginning to feel pretty comfortable with this dealership, so I don't at the moment have anyone I especially trust. Guess I'll go for proximity/ convenience instead.)

Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of time to pursue this at the moment, and it's not urgent in my mind, unless I knew I was doing damage to the engine. Since switching to 93 octane, I don't hear anything happening, and I'm not sure the increased top-end wear was due to the pinging anyway. How worried should I be about the continued health of my engine?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[supraturbo]

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:
Looks like this engine is good to go.

A bit off topic, but how many times have you had to replace the timing belt in that 260,000 miles? Every have one break?

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I had one last 140k miles on a d16 1.6L sohc non-vtec, looked good when it came off, no cracks etc. Waited 14 years and 140k on my supra turbo(non-interference engine) however it had lots of cracks and probably would have let go pretty soon.

 

[supraturbo]

Also if you want to verify that the timing belt was installed correctly its pretty easy to check. Just need a 10mm socket, get the engine to tdc (notch on crank pulley lined up with line on lower timing belt cover 12 o'clock position), remove plug wires from plugs, set them aside. Remove cam cover then upper timing cover. takes literally 10 min. to do this. Now I have no idea why honda designed this the way they did but it is very easy to mess up, there are several marks on the timing gear, my manual showed marks at the 12, 9 and 3 o'clock positions and they didn't line up with the marks on the front of the cam gear. After looking a little bit I noticed that the marks did however line up with marks on the back of the cam gear, why the correct marks are on the back of the gear I don't know but if I used the marks on the front it would be incorrect. Also when setting the engine to tdc remember that honda engines spin counter clock wise. My engine is a 96 dx 1.6l sohc non-vtec, so your cam timiing marks might be different. I would think that it would run pretty bad if even off by one tooth as this would be several degrees of cam timing.