7.3 F250 Problem.

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
1) That diesel fuels had a life span beyond 25 years (now 33 years later)and that alternative fuels had a "price". Perhaps that time is still another 20 odd years away


Hi Doug

Sorry, could you please clarify that? I'm a bit confused

Did you intend to state that the actual fuel had a life of 25 years, or the motor/electronics?

I've been a consultant at abandoned US Air Force radar and communication sites in the Arctic. The POL tank farms were usually abandoned in place, and after 25 years the fuel quite literally had a life of its own

Truly nasty things grow in diesel fuel

jay

 

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
I would prefer a non electric engine it has failed under warranty dead on the road .My wife was on the way to work The dealer replaced a sensor I do not remember which sensor and both batteries under warranty. Wouldn't happened if not eletric .I have never been left dead on the road in a non electric engine .


Steve

Yes, good point. Although in theory a *properly engineered* electronic motor has long MTBF, it can cause issues if a fault happens

More than likely, the sensor issue was found within 5 minutes with the dealership scantool. However, for the average driver, the MTTR is not as easy

jay

 

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Flywest
The simple facts are that for all the improvements in metallurgy oils and electronics - the [censored] engines are less reliable than their old purely mechanical counterparts!


With well engineered systems, actually the reverse is true. These motors tend to be more reliable and efficient

Note the two magic words I used: "well engineered." As in "properly engineered." The issues you are having with your Ford diesel in Australia are similar to issues that Ford owners have here in the US or Canada

A lot of folks here tend to purchase the Dodge 3/4 and 1 ton pickup trucks, just to have the Cummins diesel motor. In use this motor has proven reliable, efficient, and durable

Once you are stuck with a problem vehicle, you feel like setting it on fire. Trust me, I've been in your boat. Fortunately, it was a fleet vehicle and I could easily walk away from it

Originally Posted By: Flywest
Sure a genius with a laptop and diagnostic software and a full blown service workshop can fix you up every time you break down - but effectively this means DON'T TAKE YOUR 4WD ANYWHERE OUTSIDE OF A MAJOR CITY.


Well, at my hobby farm I have an old Ford pickup. It has been in the family since new. No emissions controls, breaker point ignition, aftermarket 4 barrel carb.

Let's face it, although mechanically very simple and easy to repair, I wouldn't want to drive it daily. It has its place though, and most likely will last the remainder of my days

I have a 2004 Toyota Prius hybrid car as my commuter car. The fuel savings alone it has paid for itself already. However, it's complexity is far beyond average repair ability

For example, some of the 2004 Prius had a "stall" issue. It was a software glitch. What usually happened, you'd be at a red light. The gasoline motor is off, as it is designed to do to save fuel

Traffic light turns green. You slowly accelerate at the pace of traffic, which at slow speeds is entirely on electric. At a certain point the battery voltage drops, or the power demand is too much for the electric motor, and the petrol motor must turn on

It tries to turn on, the software glitch fails to recognise a "run" condition, and it locks out the petrol motor. The dash lights up like a Christmas tree, with a large red triangle the most scary feature

A "simple" software update fixed that. Dealership fetched my car within 10 mins, and an hour later I was on my way again. But if I had been 2 hours outside of Winnipeg at my hobby farm, that would have been entirely different

So I always drive my Prius for the city commute, but no longer drive it to remote areas. If it should happen to stop on me, there is no way an average mechanic will even know where to begin

Originally Posted By: Flywest
I can get my Toyota serviced or repaired here - but not Ford!


That's the key point. Even if the Ford was reliable, when it eventually needed servicing, who would you go to? A dealership 1,000 km away??

I've been to Australia a few times on business, most recently 2006. As I recall the ground is thick with Toyota's, at least in Sydney and Melbourne.

It's my understanding the new 4.5 litre V8 turbodiesel Cruiser has electronics and common rail injection. However, if that is a common vehicle in the remote areas, more than likely servicing wouldn't be an issue

I'm sorry if you're having trouble with your Ford. Their servicing really stinks here too. It's embarassing, especially when they market/sell an expensive product in your country, with [censored] support

jay

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
jay - Yes perhaps it does require an explantion

It was meant in a conceptual sense in that they (MB) could continue to develop diesel engines for at least another 25 years from that point (1975)

Distillate (the fuel) does indeed have a use by date!

 

[Flywest]

A visiting CAT diesel technician poked his head under the hood with his tools etc and diagnosed and fixed a shorted wiring harness fault in the vally of the engine (one of the harness wires rubbed thru on the valve cover, a VERY common problem on these Fords).

Now sure what he did - but the trucks a goer again - back like new after 8 weeks or so of trying to find anyone even game to take a look at it!

The place is a diesel fitters workshop - they fix all diesels long haul trucks etc you name it - but even with the diagnostic software I bought - the codes I pulled, and the internet diagnostics from experts in the USA referencing wiring harness faults etc etc none of the diesel fitters / mechanics could find this simple wiring harness fault.

In fairness electronics shorts can be a b!tch to find - I know it myself having traced a few on gassers myself in my youth - from cracked coils to cracked distributor caps and leaking high tension leads to the plugs etc.

In my day we would drive outta the city on a new moon night and open the hood and look for the blue spark as we jiggled the suspected harness around to generate a fault...

Simple but more often than not it worked.

Little bit different today with the complexity of wiring harnesses that we have on these computerised systems.

They are changing out my fuel filters (twice) because they also claim my fuel source has been shandied down with toluene or something .... pretty common practice up this way to try and make extra profits on fuel sales at equivalent US$6.50/gallon prices already.

Some suggestion that the fuel isn't up to scratch...which is a possibility, but I remember where I bought it from...

Words will be said in due course.

At least it goes again, now All I need to do is sell it!

Cheers

 

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
It was meant in a conceptual sense in that they (MB) could continue to develop diesel engines for at least another 25 years from that point (1975)


Hello Doug

Thanks, that clears the issue. I agree, there is a lot more development to be done. I would not be surprised if per-cylinder control of the motor - using per cylinder monitoring - will show up in the next 5-10 years

Have you seen the giant Waukesha V-16 motors? I've seen them used on oil fields - running on well gas - to provide power and compressor operation.

A lot of the Waukesha motors configured for well head operation offer per-cylinder spark monitoring and control

jay

 

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Flywest
A visiting CAT diesel technician poked his head under the hood with his tools etc and diagnosed and fixed a shorted wiring harness fault in the vally of the engine (one of the harness wires rubbed thru on the valve cover, a VERY common problem on these Fords).


Well, at least somebody finally solved your problem!

Originally Posted By: Flywest
none of the diesel fitters / mechanics could find this simple wiring harness fault.


Those are the worst to find, especially on a complex system where even minor wiring resistance changes confuse the computer and cause massive problems

The industrial networks I work with - ProfiBus, Foundation FieldBus, DeviceNet, etc - usually have protection from opens and shorts. I spec Turck connector blocks, they offer per port open/short protection

When they can't engineer a Ford to do the same thing, is beyond me. Given the trouble reports here in North America, you're not the only one who has experienced this issue

In the early 1980's, Ford offered the first International diesel in their 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks. This was a 6.9 litre V8, no turbo either. Very simple mechanical fuel injection

You know how it is though, emissions regulations were introduced, and folks demanded more power. Not sure how I survived all those years driving a 120 HP work truck, perhaps I should sue for emotional distress

Originally Posted By: Flywest
They are changing out my fuel filters (twice) because they also claim my fuel source has been shandied down with toluene or something .... pretty common practice up this way to try and make extra profits on fuel sales at equivalent US$6.50/gallon prices already.


That probably wouldn't affect an older mechanical fuel injection system too badly, the new tight-tolerance injectors probably don't like it too much

Originally Posted By: Flywest
At least it goes again, now All I need to do is sell it!


Perhaps you can sell it as a work truck to an oilfield crew? Just make sure it runs well when you take them on the test drive

Still considering the Cruiser, or perhaps a Landy? Next time I'm over in Oz, I will have to check out the new Cruiser with the turbodiesel V8. They seem very durable, even have a snorkle

Best of luck

jay

 

[Steve S]

Glad you got the beast back on the road. .The superduty engine is to me fairly simple to work on I am not a master of it ,it is all new to me .Though I have had training up to obdII in autos. But I did that kind of work. ALL IT TAKES IS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

 

[paul246]

Glad the problem is sorted out.

Going back to page two of this thread, it looks like contributor "Harley Anderson" was the first to actually close in on the problem. Good for him.

Honourable mention goes to "Steve S".

This thread was certainly educational in many respects.

 

[cos]

Glad to hear your truck is now fixed. Sorry to hear about all the trouble you have getting your Ford serviced. I, and all my family members have driven mostly Fords (gassers) for the last 20+ yrs because they have been very reliable and affordable.

 

[Flywest]

Would you believe?

Would you believe - the truck was good for all of 100 kilometers (60 miles) before it reverted to the same issue again!

Yes I have a short somewhere taking out one bank of 4 cylinders again! Sadly I wasn't able to sell the truck within the 60 miles it was running OK!

So in desperation I went outside in the dark and got totally eaten alive by mosquitoes (think Mangroves and mozzies / sand fleas) while I tried to find some sense outta this issue.

I opened the hood and used a floor mat to cover the under bonnet globe to get complete darkness. I wriggled the wiring harness so the check engine light was off and it starts and runs great on all 8 cylinders.

Then when you rev the engine with accelerator pedal - the short starts up again and one bank of 4 cylinders drops out.

Stop the truck - wiggle the wiring harness thru the valley and she is good again until you rev the engine.

When it shorts - you can tell because the globe under the bonnet flickers in time with when the computer is trying to fire the injectors.

When it is running on all 8 the globe is clear and bright with a steady light - so this is a dead short of some kind.

There are 9 wires in the harness that goes to each bank of cyclinders.

4 wires go to each of the glow plugs
4 Wires go to each of the injectors
1 wire (the orange one) is a common earth return wire for each of the glow plugs and each of the injectors!

I am not having any trouble that I know of with the glow plugs, but i am having trouble with all 4 injectors on that bank - best i know - the only wire they all have in common is this orange one . I suspect this is the one the technician from CAT peeled back and wrapped in insulation tape to stop it from shorting.

With all that said, while the bonnet was up I was looking for the tell take blue sparks of a direct short. I did see ONE big blue flash down the front of the engine under the serpentine belt.

It appears to have come from a blue and black wire that goes to the oxygen sensor. It is routed behind a water pump hose hard up against the cast Iron block which gets quite hot - I suspect that the insulation is melting and allowing a direct short, with movement of the wiring harness from the torquing effect of the engine.

I tried to unplug the wire and re route it away from the block without success - the plug on the end wouldn't go thru a gap that has a hard plumbed pipe for air conditioning or some such, probably i will have too - cut the wires - re route it and solder them back together and insulation tape them over to re-insulate them again? ( I hate destroying a wiring harness but can't think of an easier way)?.

So - after unplugging the O2 sensor plug, and re plugging it in - the engine started up fine and ran on all 8 cylinders...

I revved her up twice and she didn't short out this time - then on the 3rd rev it did short again.

I am reasonably sure this O2 sensor wire shorting is somehow responsible for the computer maybe shutting off this bank of 4 injectors on one side maybe?

Maybe I have 2 shorts?...one to the sensor and one to the injectors common orange wire?

OK = now the cruncher.

With the engine turned off at the key, my eldest sin was assisting me to install a cell phone aerial on the "roo bar" out front.

We bolted it on and ran the aerial cable thru a grommet in the firewall to the inside of the vehicle to be able to plug into the cell phone, for remote area reception.

That sounds easy enough and in truth it was.

Heres the worrying bit.

While pushing the aerial cable thru the grommet alongside the wiring harness wires, I could hear a solenoid or relay switching on and off on and off as the wires in this grommet were moved.

I am thinking maybe the glow plug relay was operating and switching off again due to a short in the wiring harness where it goes thru the firewall.

Remember that the glow plugs and the injectors share a common orange earth return wire... I am thinking maybe the short is somewhere in that grommet harness spot where it goes thru the firewall.

This would account for the torquing effect of the engine shorting the computer out for the bank of injectors and maybe for the glow plug relay activating when the key is off and the harness moved.

I still think I have an issue with the O2 sensor shorting as well.

Thats 3 possible probable points at which i have an electrical problem.

Remember this vehicle is less than 4 years old - under warranty from Ford and hasn't traveled 70,000 miles yet.

This is why i say that Ford haven't engineered the wiring harness properly if there is bare metal on the inner firewall that isn't rubber grommeted and that the wiring harness is shorting there.

Sadly I am back out on my Island and so not able to finish the diagnostic work or try to engineer a fix for it - I have to try to explain what i have found to some one back on the mainland and rely on them to find what i have already found and engineer a proper fix for it!

A "reliable fix" for me is NOT moving the wire and wrapping a bit of insulation tape around it - that just cures the problem for a few more kilometers until it rubs thru again!

I need someone to take a look and engineer a reliable long term fix, so i don;t get stranded again in the middle of no where with no help.

Example - when it acted up again within 100 kilometers of getting it back repaired, I was on the way to the airport taking two overseas guests from Holland to meet their plane home after a 2 weeks visit for a fishing charter.

Luckily we left early to allow some time for sight seeing, so when it happened i had time to turn around and limp back home - swap vehicles and still get back to the air port in time to catch the flight.

Interestingly - on the open highway I picked a straight section to turn around, but having such a wide turn circle I had to execute a 3 point turn...

Having only 4 cylinders instead of 8 and almost no power I could barely move at all - only very very slowly - and it took so long to turn around that we almost got hit amidships by a vehicle on the highway doing 65mph - who couldn't understand WHY it was taking me so long to perform the maneouver.

Surely this is a safety recall issue for Ford?

We could all have died due to this failure.

I believe the product is defective and not of merchantable quality to be sold to an unsuspecting public.

I believe Ford should be forced to recall every F truck of the 1197 - 2003 models and re engineer the wiring harnesses until they are safe to take on the road & reliable.

Clearly from my experience and that of many others Ford have manufactured a "lemon" vehicle under the code.

Short of a class action suit by owners to get them to fix the design faults, what other recourse does someone in my position have?

I can't even take my vehicle to a dealer for warranty work. there being no dealership within 1000 kilometers in any direction.

Even if there was, it won't go more than 100 km's before it breaks down again - so I would be lucky to get there!

I can't wait to sell off this vehicle - it is more of a liability than an assett.

Cheers

 

[Steve S]

Sorry to hear the bad news . You now have the wires memorized .If you keep the truck for another year you will become an expert in repairs .I guess the little humor won't bring a smile to your face . There shouldn't be an o2 sensor

 

[OVERKILL]

Flywest: I don't think Ford is going to recall the vehicles because of an isolated incident. I have no idea how common the issue you are experiencing it is, but a good friend of mine is an International diesel mechanic, and subsequently works on a lot of the Ford trucks and he has never talked of an issue such as the one you are experiencing. Perhaps it's a RHD issue pertaining to the harness? I don't know if your harness is different from the ones that have the traditional LHD over here.

And Toyota is hardly [censored]'s gift to the automotive world. Whilst it sounds like they offer FAR better service in your neck of the woods than Ford does, they did have issues affecting MILLIONS of vehicles in regards to oil sludge related engine failures and angered a whole lot of people when they initially refused to acknowledge the issue, and then refused to do anything about it. This led to petitions and I believe class-action lawsuites against Toyota.

More info here: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002/04/04/toyota-sludge.htm

I hope your issue ultimately finds resolve. No vehicle or manufacturer is perfect, so it is best to buy something that IS locally serviceable, which it sounds like, unfortunately, your Ford is not.

Best of luck.

-Chris

 

[Flywest]

Update,

For anyone interested - i chance4d a drive 40 KM's to nearby town after pushing the orange wire into the middle of the bundle coming thru the firewall grommet.

I made it - so dropped the vehicle at an auto electricians place and showing him the problems, left it with him to have a play with.

I havent been back to the mainland for a few weeks now so - i am guessing he will get to it soon enough.

I really did enjoy driving it to the repair place it was only 40 km's but I REALLY like my Effie - truck, it's just that unless I KNOW 100% that the electrical problems are completely sorted - I don't feel very confident taking it any distance at all.

Sell it or keep it?

Well disels at almost $6 bucks a english gallon now and i only get 10 MPG pulling the boat.

I have around $100K invested in this danged truck and drive it so seldom now = that probably I should sell it off and get something else.

Decisions decisions. I'll procrastinate a little longer until i get it back and give it a decent drive...

Cheers

Cheers

 

[Steve S]

I hope it is good news .How about the boat engine? Thanks for the info .

 

[Flywest]

And the saga drags on.

The auto electrician couldn't find the problem despite pulling the intercooler pipes and looking at the wiring loom.

Cost me $250 for him to look at it and find nothing - ran fine for his test drive.

Collected it and paid his $250, drove 50 meters out his gate and it quit again - back to running on 4 cylinders.

Dropped it back and asked him top keep looking!

He test drove it and said it seemed OK again, so he took it to another mechanic this time who diagnosed it on a computer and said theres something wrong with one bank of injectors!

Give that man a prize - just what i told the auto sparky when i dropped it there -i even told him whjich wire was the problem and how to fix it - he just chose NOT to listen to me - do his own thing stiff it up and then pass the buck to another repairer when he can't find the problem because he knows nothing about f 250's and how they work.

No doubt now - after having spent the best part of a grand trucking the vehicle in for repairs and buying the computer program and diagnosing the problem myself months back - it still isn't repaired and likely I'll get a bill from this next company who I didn't authorise to work on my vehicle, for diagnosing my truck with a software program I already own.

People do NOT ring you back when you ask them too - they take it on themselves to pass the vehicle along to another repairer etc etc - unbeliveable.

Just more examples of how no one knows how to repair Ford product .

Its been so many months now since my vehicle ran properly that I just cannot wait to get rid of it.

Would I buy another Ford in this lifetime?

Cheers

 

[Steve S]

I will stand by my statement that Electronic controlled engines suck big time. There are advantages but they add a whole layer of problems that seem to cost more than the electronics save.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
I will stand by my statement that Electronic controlled engines suck big time. There are advantages but they add a whole layer of problems that seem to cost more than the electronics save.


No, NEWER electronic controlled engines suck.

The old-school ones like Ford's EEC-IV are STUPIDLY simple to fix and maintain.

 

[Steve S]

I hate the fix it part of electronics..

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
I hate the fix it part of electronics..


You have to fix anything. I can honestly say that 90% of the sensors on my Mustang motor and Town Car engine are original parts.

Mustang, right down to the TFI. TPS was replaced (finally went bad after 20 years) and the ACT because it was pretty crusty when I changed the intake to the TFS-R.

Town Car has TPS and TFI replaced. OE everything else right down to the EVP and EGR. Even the MAF conversion on it, the MAF sensor is out of a 90 Mustang.

86-93 were some great years for Ford's SEFI stuff. Everything post 93 added more parts and more complication.