7.3 F250 Problem.

[Flywest]

Dougs example needs to be viewed in context.
I live on the opposite side of this pizza to Doug.
(He's in the east - I'm on the west).
Our land mass is the size of 50 states of the USA excluding Alaska and Hawaii.
We have a population of 20 million.
18 million of them live on Dougs side
The other 2 Million Live on my side
Those 2 million all live down south in Perth
I'm as far NORTH of Perth and the 2 million as I an WEST of Doug & his 18 Million mechanics and ford dealers.

In all honesty - this may not be the butt end of the earth - but I assure you - you can see it from here! LOL.

So - now where do I look if it aint a UVCH connection problem?

Cheers

 

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Flywest
This is the Oil & Gas centre of production - Oil companies here have many many $ Millions to waste, so everyone does pretty well without actually doing any WORK - why start now and ruin a beautiful arrangement?.


Oi!

Your situation certainly sounds like the one here in Canada, in the Province of Alberta. Due to the economic boom from the oil and gas sector, espcially the Tar Sands scheme, there appears to be an unwritten license to robbery

For example, a potential homeowner pays a builder upwards of $500,000 Cdn dollars to have a home built near Edmonton, Calgary, or Ft Mac. The potential homeowner very wisely pays the contractor in milestones, not all at once

The contractor may dig the foundation hole, pour the basement walls, maybe even frame a few walls, then find a much better paying job elsewhere. So the contractor will just WALK AWAY and leave this shell, and the potential homeowner is SOL

Your remoteness reminds me of the stories my grandpa used to tell me. He was a civillian employee under RCA and worked the DEW lines in northern Canada and Alaska, he repaired the radar electronics - actually vacuum tubes back then

Every little thing had to be airlifted in by ski-equipped Hercules C-130 planes. If they were on site and needed a part, they sometimes had to wait weeks to get it

Hence the need to warehouse millions of dollars of parts at every radar site. And the need to store upwards of 250,000 gallons of diesel in tank farms to run the gennies

I live right in the middle of civilisation, so I drive a hybrid car to work and enjoy the usual toys. However, I also have a hobby farm in a remote area, and there is no way I would think of driving the hybrid out that far.

I have a FJ Cruiser (Similar to your Prado, with a 4.0 litre V6 petrol) for drives out. For a work truck I have a factory non-emission 1984 Ford F-150 4wd truck, with many aftermarket parts.

That thing is easy to work on, there isn't a part on the truck I can't fix myself, or jury-rig to keep running. I would be leery of running any sort of finicky technology far removed from official support

Your comments about Ford service are spot on. The Ford dealers around here couldn't figure out the problems with the new 2008 Ford F-450, the diesel motor would sometimes spout flames out the exhaust pipe

It turned out a software update cured that, eventually

I hope you get your truck fixed soon. I agree with your decision to get the Landy, you will have more support and their diesels tend to be easier to work on, and have a reputation for reliability.

 

[Steve S]

Basically high tech cool only to the people who do not know any better.

 

[heyjayman]

So was this problem solved? Given your location in a remote area of Australia, I would stick with a vehicle that is commonly used, like a Landy (Land Rover Range Rover) or a Cruiser (Toyota Land Cruiser)

I've been to South Africa and the ground is thick with Cruiser's. Also quite a few Landy's. No way I'd take a chance with something exotic/rare. No matter how well made, every machine will eventually break. I'm with Steve, the high tech stuff will then leave you stranded

For example, recently a few immigrants from the former East Germany and Poland have moved to Manitoba, especially the SE corner. They bring over 1980's to early 1990's Euro-spec Mercedes, BMW, and even Opel diesel station wagons. Not sure how they can do so, these things gush black diesel smoke and have no emissions controls. However, they are fairly complicated otherwise

Once their car stops working, or even something "simple" like a fuel filter or oil filter, they're SOL. Unless they arrange to have the parts shipped from the EU

They even get fooled by something as simple as a block heater. North America has 120 vac power, EU has 220

 

[Flywest]

Still not fixed yet but maybe we are getting close.
I took the laptop to town and buzz tested the injectors again, pulled the codes etc.

It seems after a lot of ohms testing that all the injectors themselves are fine, yet 4 in one bank won't fire at all.

The common areas of problem like under valve cover harness problem etc aren't the cause.

The only thing we can get is we thing a common earth wire in bank Two Valve cover gasket pins has broken or burnt out - because he gets fluctuations and high resistance when ohms testing the pins in the gasket electrical connector from inside the valve cover to outside.

Ordered two new valve cover gaskets with new pins connectors to see if that cures our problem.

Its the only thing that makes sense - because theres 9 wires in that harness - 4 fire the injectors and 4 make the glow oplugs light up - the 9th wire is the common return (earth) wire for the other 8!

The only way 4 cylinders can go from working perfectly when parked up - to not working at all 4 hours later at the turn of a key is if that common wire to the 4 injectors in bank 2 suddenly broke.

The place it appears to have broken is where that particular wire pin goes thru the gasket.

At least thats our thinking right now - if we replace the gasket connections for no result - then we start again tracing all the harness wires back to the onboard computer.

They do have a habit of chafing thru over the top of one of the shock absorber trees and where they run over the top of the valve cover....so we may yet have to dig even deeper.

It's only time and money!

With any luck I might be able to sell it and buy that spanking new cruiser...

Cheers

 

[Shannow]

You're kidding that a valve cover gasket is part of an electrical plug...aren't you ?

Talk about progress.

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
You're kidding that a valve cover gasket is part of an electrical plug...aren't you ?

Talk about progress.
Yes the fuel injectors and the glow plug wiring has to go through the valve cover gasket so there is a plug on the outside and the inside of the valve cover gasket. Why do I think new cars and trucks suck big time. Stupid designs.Stupid designers.

 

[Flywest]

Not kidding at all.

I always had diesls for the last 15 odd years because I got tired of chasing mystery electrical problems on gas engines, and have fallen in love with the reliability of diesel...

That is until this vehicle...where as you correctly point out - some fool has decided to mix electrickery with diesel function - and we are back too - something totally unreliable.

These navistar engines are just the worst piece of technology, and have about sent Ford to the wall.

The 7.3's weren't as bad as the newer 6.0 & 6.4's are for poor reliability.

Ford and Navistar have been to court over this very unreliability / warranty cost issue.

Navistar produced the technology and the associated warranty costs are sending Ford broke. Ford started to deduct the excessive warranty costs from payments to Navistar for the new engines - claiming that the warranty costs were outside the limits set within the supply contract and that Navistar should pay for theior poor product reliability.

Navistar claimed Ford stopped paying for engines as agreed under the supply contract, so they stopped supplying new engines to Ford and closed a plant with 600 employees making engines for Ford.

The Judge ordered Ford to Pay and Navistar to manufacture.

Navistar have a contract to supply engines until 2012, yet found out that Ford is buyig the tooling to manufacture their own engines from 2010 onwards - i.e. in breach of the supply contract so they took Ford to court.

Perhaps if they spent less time fighting each other and more time designing a RELIABLE product both of them would make profits and not keep the lawyers wealthy.

Me - I think I will sell and buy a Toyota.

Cheers

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Flywest - You said this;
"I always had diesls for the last 15 odd years because I got tired of chasing mystery electrical problems on gas engines, and have fallen in love with the reliability of diesel..."

The first mid/heavy diesel engines that were electronically "sensed" (Cummins) and then with full ECMs and "electically injected" (Detroit Diesel) commenced operation in OZ in 1985 and 1987 respectively

They have been virtually trouble free "electrically" since around 1992

 

[Shannow]

Doug,
is there a difference in OTR transport and "made for market" passenger cars in respect to the electrics ?

Out of my league here, but what are warranties like on Rigs versus "utes" ?

It's been my observation that "Beta" testing appears to take place in the automotive world by the first paying customers (unless you are buying something German).

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Shannow - Because of the lower volumes of vehicles trucks are also "refined" by the end users

A stock vehicle/engine Warranty is two years or around 250k kms. Most are sold with extended engine Warranty arrangements out to 4-7 years and up to 800k kms. These are "paid for" in the price (nothing is free) and the Warranties are selective

The engine manufacturers (including MAN an MB) are very careful about Warranty and Claims - use of the correct coolant and lubricants being high on their list. A new DD 12.7 ltr Series 60 @ 500hp costs around $50000

 

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
The first mid/heavy diesel engines that were electronically "sensed" (Cummins) and then with full ECMs and "electically injected" (Detroit Diesel) commenced operation in OZ in 1985 and 1987 respectively

They have been virtually trouble free "electrically" since around 1992


Hello Doug

I have a hobby farm about 2 hours NE of Winnipeg. A neighbor about 4km from the hobby farm is a long haul owner/operator.

His oldest truck is a 1997 aerodynamic Kenworth with a DD Series 60. That motor has full DDEC. Last fall, he called me and asked if I could give a hand troubleshooting some issues. He knows I have a lot of industrial controls experience

As it turned out, one of his drivers was near Sault St Marie, Ontario, when at highway speeds the motor "just shut off." The driver pulled over safely off the highway, and tried to restart. Just cranked

He called a mobile HD mechanic shop, wait time was at least 4 hours. So about an hour later, he tries it again, and it fired right up

He made it to Winnipeg, unloaded at the terminal, and when he got back in, it just cranked. So they towed it out of the way, and around an hour later tried it again. Just cranked

My neighbor drove in that evening to see just what the [censored] happened. He tried it, started right up. So he drove it out to his place, with the other driver following in the personal vehicle

At that point they called me. They were receiving baffling error messages in the driver display. One would think a 10 year old truck, with old wiring, would start to experience baffling wiring issues

So I'm looking at the motor, the driver side (Passenger side in Australia), and happen to notice his air compressor. As you are well aware, the air compressor is direct-drive off the motor. It looked brand new

I asked about that new looking air compressor. My neighbor claimed the other one blew around 2 months previous. Near where the air compressor mounts, are two sensors: a crankshaft position sensor and a camshaft position sensor

Both are Hall Effect sensors. There is a slotted ring on the crank and cam, as they turn the magnet in the sensor generates a minute voltage source, which the DDEC uses to determine fuel injection timming/triger

So I asked my neighbor to remove the cam and crank sensors. They were absolutely hairy with metal slivers. Apparently, when the air compressor went, the debris went into the motor. My neighbor did report finding a lot of slivers on the oil drain plug magnet, the next oil change

I cleaned off the sensors, but he wanted to test them. I hooked up a DMM to the sensor, and used a screwdriver to gently sweep back and forth in front of the magnet, not touching the magnet. It was easy to see the voltage. This is similar to Hall Effect sensors used in industry, such as a valve position sensor on a tank farm

Put the sensors back in, it started right up. As far as I know, it still runs ok

Technology can intimidate folks, and send them off on the wrong path while troubleshooting. An incidental issue can mask the real problem.

Also, I highly doubt the new Toyota V8 turbodiesel is "simpler" compared to the Ford. Perhaps it is better designed, and since there are so many of them in Australia, the odds of successful repair are better

 

[Steve S]

Imo the electronic stuff adds to a higher failure rate .The more plumbing the easier it is to clog up the pipes. I would rather have no moving parts ,that failing 1 moving part would be o.k.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
heyjayman - Sometimes lateral thinking must be applied. The art of diagnosis has been effectively lost to a hand held gadget alone -sad that

Son No 3 is a MAN-MB Technician - The electronics on the Euro 4/5 engines are complex and quite reliable. However when issues occur it is only the practical Technicians that win the day. It is the combination of common sense, basic diagnostic skills and the latest hand held gadgets that works wonders

I once had an air leak and the IVECO Dealer replace about $3000 worth of slave valves and etc. It was not fixed. It was fixed by me in the end on their premises - it was two air lines over the valve cover that had chafed through! Of course I never paid their account - they gave me the parts for nothing as a "goodwill" gesture!!

Steve S - IME the modern North American heavy diesel engine is a much better animal than those of the 1970s and 1980s. So much more reliable and with very long service lives to first rebuild stage and excellent fuel economy too

 

[Steve S]

Is that better oil, build and material quality or the fussy eletronics?

 

[Steve S]

Spelled electronics wrong, darn computer!! I have to add my wife has a 2002 Superduty diesel engine .It has been overall very good I do not really like the engine for many reasons.I would prefer a non electric engine it has failed under warranty dead on the road .My wife was on the way to work The dealer replaced a sensor I do not remember which sensor and both batteries under warranty. Wouldn't happened if not eletric .I have never been left dead on the road in a non electric engine .

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Steve S -
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Is that better oil, build and material quality or the fussy eletronics?


IMHO it is all of these plus better metallurgy. There will always be issues as engines age of course and it is first life to rebuild that is the most effective time of all

As a matter of interest, at a meeting of MB's Senior Development Engineers that I attended in Sindelfingen in 1975 two things have "lived" with me ever since;

1) That diesel fuels had a life span beyond 25 years (now 33 years later)and that alternative fuels had a "price". Perhaps that time is still another 20 odd years away

2) That electronics would overwhelm the automotive industry including heavy trucks

They were "on the ball"

About eight years earlier I had worked on the prototype EFI systems we accept as commonplace today - VW, MB and Bosch were the players then

In the case of Detroit Diesel, their original DDEC system (1985) was really quite basic. Later systems with much larger and faster computing abilities have enabled remote contact (over the phone power upgrades etc) and an enormous range of diagnostic abilities and etc. This system is used on many diesel engines today - DD is owned by MB

One feature I have used is the last recorded data prior to an accident. This is a great tool for carrying out an accurate accident analysis

 

[Flywest]

The simple facts are that for all the improvements in metallurgy oils and electronics - the [censored] engines are less reliable than their old purely mechanical counterparts!.

If they were MORE reliable - we wouldn't be seeing Ford & Navistar in court suing and counter-suing each other.

I am not saying that electronics COULDN'T be used to make engines better, more reliable and so on...probably they could - but the electrical engineering we are seeing isn't reliable...

Electrical harnesses that chafe on the valve covers, electrical harnesses who's connections let go under the valve covers because of heat and oil, gaskets pins connectors that break (in 70,000 miles), Wiring harnesses that chafe on the shocker tree, cam position sensors that fail to the point it becomes a safety recall issue.

Whats annoying is this:-

The mechanicals of the engine itself, are capable of a million miles to first rebuild...

The "stuff" added on to try and make them run in the way of poorly designed electricals - are the downfall for reliablity.

Sure a genius with a laptop and diagnostic software and a full blown service workshop can fix you up every time you break down - but effectively this means DON'T TAKE YOUR 4WD ANYWHERE OUTSIDE OF A MAJOR CITY.

Thats a [censored] position to be in as a vehicle owner.

Some people have to live and work in remote areas to make their livelihood.

These defective designed built products could send private contractors etc in such remote area's - to the wall.

We are in the 3rd millenium - we have vehicles that can crawl around on the surface of Mars for more than a year - remote controlled from earth.

We can't make a 4wd Ford truck that can operate oputside of a major city?

Hello - but unless you missed it - there is something decidedly WRONG here!

IMHO - these Ford trucks - don't meet the requirement under the trade practices act of being of merchantable quality - they cannot reasonably be expected to meet the demands of those who buy then for everyday reliable transport, due to design and support network defects.

Maybe you could get away with a poor defective design IF you had a first class world wide support network that Ford once had - they no longer do.

I can get my Toyota serviced or repaired here - but not Ford!

Once upon a time it was the other way around and Toyota was the newcomer with limited servicing premises, but now the shoe is on the other foot.

About the ONLY delay I would have with Toyota?...they are So [censored] busy because they have ALL of the vehicle market here, theior premises has vehhicles lined up down the street servicing mining company fleets & hire company fleets of toyota!

This is a hugely wealthy area of mining & oil & gas - where toyota are making billions a year not millions - but Ford can't even sell or repair or service a vehicle here..

Does that give some indication why the parent company is going broke?

They can't play the game against toyota where the big markets really are.

If they can't even play the game in the big markets - how will they survive playing in the small markets?

My choice to swap vehicles will be a sad one.

I sold my cruiser to buy the Ford for speed on the highway and comfort towing my boat, the F truck does that admirably - theres no question of that (when it runs), but with 8 week downtime periods for every minor electrical glitch (and no local dealer for support) - who can afford to own a Ford product these days?.

Toyota will win every time against Ford - reliable product and support service, an unbeatable combination.

Cheers

 

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Steve S
Imo the electronic stuff adds to a higher failure rate .The more plumbing the easier it is to clog up the pipes. I would rather have no moving parts ,that failing 1 moving part would be o.k.


Steve

Maybe yes, maybe no. My background is systems analysis, so I can apply FMECA and DMECA to at least the industrial automation side

Prior to extensive digital networked control buses, such as Foundation FieldBus, a lot of industrial control was either 4-20 mA discrete control, or the older 5-15 psi pneumatic control

Discrete control tended to fail due to environmental reasons - too hot for the electronics. This was before IC's and PCB's were specifically designed for high temp excurisions and conformal coated

The pneumatic control needed frequent adjustment/calibration, and tiny valves tended to stick unless the plant air system was religiously maintained

Operating efficiencies tend to dictate that only modern controls are used. Not only are the modern systems usually more reliable, they are more efficient

As an example, the SECCO petrochemical complex near Shanghai, China. It was the largest ethylene cracking complex in the world when opened in 2005. It is also the largest Foundation FieldBus installation in the world

From cold start to in-spec took one shift. A conventional 30-50 year old petrochemical facility in the US or Canada will take upwards of 2 weeks to reach in-spec

It's important to contrast MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) and MTTR (Mean Time To Repair)

MTBF on the older systems was fairly short. However, MTTR was also fairly short

With a modern complex system, in theory MTBF is quite long. However, if there is a perplexing issue, MTTR can also be quite long

I agree with your premise that - poorly engineered - a complex system is less reliable with a higer failure rate

jay

 

[heyjayman]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Sometimes lateral thinking must be applied. The art of diagnosis has been effectively lost to a hand held gadget alone -sad that


Doug

I firmly believe that. I have been summoned to catastrophic industrial failures, and management has not been forthcoming with all the information

As my background is systems analysis, that has made any conclusion difficult. I have always tried to strike up good relations with field workers, pipefitters, mechanics, etc to understand all the issues

As an example, a repeated failure of an expensive tank farm level transmitter. Transmitter head always had indications of dead shorts, but wiring seemed ok

The plant electricians confided to me that damage to conduit inside the plant had allowed chemicals to enter that part of the conduit. They recommended replacing all the conduit and associated wiring, an expensive job. Denied by management, carry on as usual

A short further on that conduit had wiped out the level transmitter. So after the 5th trip out to that plant, I finally had the common sense to ask around at the lunch room, and that electrician had confided in me

So I got him a 6-pack of his favorite malted beverage for his troubles, and made a show of "testing" the wiring. I then wrote a long report to management about the need to replace all the conduit and wiring

Naturally, since I was the outside consultant, and an educated one at that, they believed me. Problem solved

I believe that people tend to get stuck in a rut, in their own little world, and that makes problem solving very difficult.

If not impossible

jay