626,000 mile Pentastar teardown

Here is his reply regarding running lighter oil:

¨Some guys run lighter oil. They have to run tighter clearances, but i think he is speaking generally. There is power in oil, there is power I'm running tighter clearances. The problem is not all racing is equal and I'll sacrifice 2hp if my Engine lasts 3 more races on thicker oil. Also they might make 2hp on the dyno when that engine ships, but after 5 events of hell, I might make 10 more because mine was in better condition.

There's an old saying in racing....run your oil clearances a tad too loose and only you know about it. Run them too tight and everyone will know about it.¨
I hear you and more power to him. Midget racing is exciting but has sort of diminished over much of the country except for the Midwest. I know Toyota is big with their engines but didn't realize Honda had entered the fray. When I'm at the Outlaws the top ten teams in points probably outspend the next 10 teams in points by magnitudes. That last couple tenths per lap cost big money. A friend of mine bought a used roller and all his shocks/bars/wheels etc used and has raced the same chassis with a home re-built 360 for multiple seasons. He is a 2nd or third tier finisher depending on car count. He has fun and he is talented but given his equipment and the cost of raising a family he won't ever win a race. I will keep my eyes open for your driver.
 
I hear you and more power to him. Midget racing is exciting but has sort of diminished over much of the country except for the Midwest. I know Toyota is big with their engines but didn't realize Honda had entered the fray. When I'm at the Outlaws the top ten teams in points probably outspend the next 10 teams in points by magnitudes. That last couple tenths per lap cost big money. A friend of mine bought a used roller and all his shocks/bars/wheels etc used and has raced the same chassis with a home re-built 360 for multiple seasons. He is a 2nd or third tier finisher depending on car count. He has fun and he is talented but given his equipment and the cost of raising a family he won't ever win a race. I will keep my eyes open for your driver.
Honda hasn´t entered the fray. They haven´t supported it at all, in any way. Honda stickers are only on the car to let them know they are doing this. This is 100% 4Piston Racing´s effort and build and the stuff making the power is proprietary to 4p.

We´re well aware of the spending. This engine costs 1/2 what a Toyota would cost and is putting out more power. This kid won a heat race at the midget nationals with an engine that was bandaged together and they had nowhere near the chassis setup of some of the teams they beat. They beat them on horsepower. Remember, the engine was damaged badly by an oil filter issue the first time out.

The midget program is just a fun hobby type deal for my nephew. They hope to eventually make money on it, but right now it is for fun and a roll of the dice, and it is at great expense to them. But, they are making big hp right out of the gate. They haven´t really flexed their design muscle with this yet, and haven´t spent much on it. If they start getting customers, they can really focus on it and make more power than they are now. They just know how to make the little Honda engine sing. They´ve set a bunch of records with their drag racing cars. In fact, they are on pace to produce 250 engines this year.

I can´t say too much about Honda because there´s politics and such and I don´t want to get my nephew in a pickle. But it is sweet for Honda right now because it has their name on it and they haven´t paid a dime.
 
Good to hear as I just bumped up to 5w30 Mobil 1 for the summer. Always ran that in the 2012 3.6L Chrysler 200S when we had it without issue getting 31-34 hwy miles on trips depending if my lead foot significant other was driving or me.

I'll use up the 0w20 for the winters then stay with either 5w30 Mobil 1 or Pennzoil Platinum.

Just made a run from Metro Detroit over to Grand Rapids pretty much running 70mph on cruise control and MPG was 26.3 with 5w30 that’s the same MPG (26.1-26.5) usually I’ve got in the past running 0w20. Negligible difference IMO.
 
I hear you and more power to him. Midget racing is exciting but has sort of diminished over much of the country except for the Midwest. I know Toyota is big with their engines but didn't realize Honda had entered the fray. When I'm at the Outlaws the top ten teams in points probably outspend the next 10 teams in points by magnitudes. That last couple tenths per lap cost big money. A friend of mine bought a used roller and all his shocks/bars/wheels etc used and has raced the same chassis with a home re-built 360 for multiple seasons. He is a 2nd or third tier finisher depending on car count. He has fun and he is talented but given his equipment and the cost of raising a family he won't ever win a race. I will keep my eyes open for your driver.
I made a thread in off topic so as to avoid hijacking this thread further. Btw, Ethan is looking good tonight!

 
It surprises me to see anything ______________made that has that many miles. Fill in the blank with whatever you´d like and it will surprise me.
 
Someone was asking about how many transmissions in that 600k miles? There is a 62TE , 500k mile transmission on YouTube being rebuilt for the first or second time out of a Pentastar Pro Master van. Maybe it's the same one?

Transmission techs just amaze me. Yanking probably 100s of different parts per unit, naming what they are, what they do and tossing them in random bins. All this while knowing how and where they go back!

Unless I see a block diagram or animated cartoon markup of one, I still can't look at the parts and understand how they work together.
 
The alcohol dilution and cylinder wall washing is much harsher with alcohol than gasoline. Race vehicles that run alcohol or methanol fuels get constant and immediate oil changes for this reason.
Interesting. Like many in my part of the world i only use E85. I never hear about engines wearing out faster. The only difference is that carbon build ups are almost non existent. I saw the internals of engines with pretty high mileage using the stuff and the cross hatching was always perfect.
 
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I'm a bit late to the party here, but If this doesn't make the case for 5w20 (in engines that call for it) I'm not sure what does. I was in the thicker oil is better camp until I saw this.
 
Transmission techs just amaze me. Yanking probably 100s of different parts per unit, naming what they are, what they do and tossing them in random bins. All this while knowing how and where they go back!

Unless I see a block diagram or animated cartoon markup of one, I still can't look at the parts and understand how they work together.

Don't let that showboat stuff fool you....No transmission man is going to start throwing stuff around on a completely unknown (to him) unit.
 
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Nice! As an former Pentastar design engineer I am slightly bias but the engine is really high quality. Few points from the development using tens of millions of dollars in analysis and testing regarding the oil and durability.....

The lighter oil was chosen mostly for fuel economy BUT engineering is the science of compromise. You help one thing but hurt another.

A thicker oil will reduce timing chain and tensioner wear because the center timing chain idler doesn't go fully hydrodynamic till about 1650rpm on 5w-20. So, a thicker oil will lower that number slightly and with general loads/speeds the engine spends a lot of time around 1500-1750 rpm with the 8 speed. So thicker oil is a win there. Additionally, the earlier engines had what was called the "McDonald's Arches" in the idler bearing which was intended in making a more uniform distribution but in actuality acted as a knife edge. This design was changed around 2014 to a smooth bearing. So overall timing chain issues will likely follow the 2011-2014 engine years more than 2014+.


Where you lose.... The head is very complicated with a Type II valve train. Meaning lots of things to pressurize and pump up at start up. A thicker oil didn't do so well here (on long sit times +cold start) and contributed to a overall increased engine wear especially in the head and cam bearings.

Last point. This engine needs occasional WOT runs if you want it to last. Granny cycling is bad for it. So bad for it we actually created a new granny cycle test during the cylinder #3 misfire issue. The highest wear is in the valve guides, because of tight valve stem seals (for emissions, reduce oil burn). They basically dry out. When you go WOT/high rpm/load you get some fresh oil in there and this keeps the wear down. Thicker oil might not help this condition but we also change the valves/guides/seals in 2014+. Not sure the impact.

Cheers!

Kevin


PS. Turn off stop start and do not run e85 if you are concerned about engine wear. Eats the engine alive.
I just purchased a Pacifica Hybrid. Do you have any insights into what the big differences are with the Hybrid V6 vs the Gas one? Since the Hybrid motor makes less power do you think it will have an easier life and last a long time if maintained correctly? Thanks for your insights.
 
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