5w30 Instead Of 5w20 In Modular V8 Ford Tech..

[Hitzy]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Hitzy
I noticed with Mobil 1/PP and others, UOA's show the 5w20 seems to have the stronger add pack versus their 5w30. Is there a reason behind this?


PP 5W-20/5W-30 usually look exactly the same, with 5W-30 having a bit more calcium.


PP 5w20 samples http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1897955&page=1

PP 5w30
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1885885&page=1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1901657#Post1901657

Those show Zinc/Phos/Calcium are all higher in the 5w20?

 

[SteveSRT8]

We have an Expedition in our shop right now for cam chain rattling at only 70k miles.

Owner claims all maintenance was followed. I may do an oil analysis to determine if the correct oil is in this engine.

Just a suspicion, but I think the owner was using a heavier weight oil in it.

 

[modularv8]

In 2004 and newer modular engines, Ford designed the engines with a high volume/high pressure oil pump that feeds directly to the main/rod bearings @ 35 psi per 1000 rpms at operating temperature. They also added metered orifices in the heads designed around the 20 wt. viscosity. Nothing catastrophic happens with 5w30, but wondering what kind of pressures are generated with higher viscosity oil or long term effects of higher viscosity oils (leaky seals?). I really wish Ford would equip their trucks with a functioning oil pressure gauge and any other worthwile gauge.

I have an inclination to run a 30 wt and would in engines before 2004, but I am not convinced that 5w20 leads to greater wear from everything that I have read. I believe that it may be true (according to Ford) that the lighter weight may actually be better for durability. Honda by the way is considering 0w10. I've read that viscosities as low as 2.3 cSt have been tested with no wear what so ever. 5w20 has been tested in the most severe conditions including a test(WOT) 160 hrs straight with no difference in wear. The F150 Raptor (5.4L &6.2L)is designed to be raced in the desert and it is spec'd w ith 5w20.

 

[Jim Allen]

Not only that, but the "protection" of the average 5W30 over a 5W20 is minimal, especially when you consider many of them shear down to a 5W20 before their life is over. In fact, 5W20s are generally far more shear stable than 5W30s due to having fewer VII. I'm not all that sure that most owners will see much of a difference going either way. If ambient or engine oil temp dictates a slightly thicker oil, at least look at the detailed visc@100C specs so you are getting an oil at the upper end of the grade. Many times you are trading a hgih 20 grade oil for a low or mid 30 grade... much ado over nothing.

 

[brsmith]

I have an '02 E-150 XLT with a 5.4 with the towing package (trans and oil coolers)

It has 144k miles and used 10w-30 synthetic it's entire life. Cuurently on it's first fill of Pennzoil Ultra.

I was told by a Ford garage to use 10w-30. They said there were issues with engines running the 5w-20 in hard use.

Maybe 5w-20 is fine, but I tried a fill of Amsoil SSO and in cold starts I didn't like the valve train noises I was hearing until the engine warmed up. It almost sounded like collapsed lifters.

That was around 40k miles and has never happened since using 10w-30.

I have lived in Chicago, Arizona and now Oklahoma with this van and it has seen plenty of brutal summers and winters.

It sure sucks to change plugs in it, but otherwise it uses nor leaks any oil and it has plenty of giddy up.

I re-programmed the ECU with the Superchips 1715 engine controller using just the 87 octane program. It really runs great and now I don't have the speed cutoff at 92 mph any longer, hehe!

 

[RISUPERCREWMAN]

The 04+ 5.4 3v will have cam phaser problems if anything but 5W-20 is used! Proper phaser operation hinges upon the 5w-20 viscosity at startup! Many people who do not use the recommended 5w-20 viscosity experience cam phaser problems (ie.loudness)...Mine has 44K miles & quiet as can be!!!

 

[mechanicx]

Didn't someone post a Ford bulletin that said some customers complained about cam phaser noise with the 5W20 and Ford actually recommended 10W40 to get rid of the noise? Anyway, 5W20 and 5W30 are so close depending on the temperature and shearing, I doubt 5W30, 10W30 or even a 40W would cause problems.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Proper phaser operation hinges upon the 5w-20 viscosity at startup


So the engine knows the difference between a 5w-20 @-10F/-20F/-30F and a 5w-20 @ 32F? They're both well off any viscosity scale and won't even be a 70 weight for about 10+ minutes.

 

[mechanicx]

Yeah even if the cam phaser was locked until a certain coolant temperature was reached, I still don't buy that a going up an oil wt. or two would cause a problem or make it noiser. Thicker oil tends to quiet things.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: Hitzy
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: Hitzy
I noticed with Mobil 1/PP and others, UOA's show the 5w20 seems to have the stronger add pack versus their 5w30. Is there a reason behind this?


PP 5W-20/5W-30 usually look exactly the same, with 5W-30 having a bit more calcium.


PP 5w20 samples http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1897955&page=1

PP 5w30
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1885885&page=1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1901657#Post1901657

Those show Zinc/Phos/Calcium are all higher in the 5w20?


Read some more UOAs, PP 5W-30 UOAs from Blackstone have shown phos limits ~50ppm over the API SM limit. Blackstone just isn't accurate enough to contrast 50-150 ppm differences in zinc and phos.

 

[modularv8]

Yes it does. The oil pan has an oil temperature sensor that feeds into the PCM disabling the cam phaser solenoid below 18F. The PCM then controls the VCT solenoid according to an algorithm of several parameters, including the expected 20 wt viscosity range. You could run a 40 wt. in the pre '04 modulars, no problem. The post 2004 engines are designed for 5w-20.

Lower viscosity oils do not necessarily give rise to thinner oil films ( Ian Taylor, Shell 2000). It has been shown that there are greater film thickness at the rings compared to higher viscosity lubricants. Also, oil viscosity is a function of pressure and temperture. As an oil film is compressed, the viscosity increases exponentially with the pressure. This along with VM leads to increased bearing load capacity.

There has never been a report that I have seen in research or in the field (consumer vehicles) that has shown 20 wt. to cause more wear than 30, 40, or 50 wt. There is alot more to engine durability than the viscosity of a motor oil. And the lower limit to viscosity where wear begins is far from a 20 wt. oil (2.3 cSt @ 100C, 4x's less than a 20 wt.)

 

[river_rat]

What happens to the phaser function on a 30 wt? Lower mileage, or does something break?

I have a Toyota truck with VVT, and the 2006 model called for XW-30, the '07 model (I have the '07) calls for XW-20.
I figure I can use either weight. Or would that be a bad idea?

 

[modularv8]

I don't know. Do both your trucks have the same engine (4.7L/5.7L)? The 4.7L has always recommended a 30 wt. while the 5.7L has always recommended a 20 wt.

 

[river_rat]

I'm sorry, I should have said, it is the 2.7, 4 cylinder Tacoma.
The 2005-2006 FSM says to use 0W-30 or 5W-30.
My OM and filler cap say 0W-20 or 5W-20.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Yes it does. The oil pan has an oil temperature sensor that feeds into the PCM disabling the cam phaser solenoid below 18F. The PCM then controls the VCT solenoid according to an algorithm of several parameters, including the expected 20 wt viscosity range. You could run a 40 wt. in the pre '04 modulars, no problem. The post 2004 engines are designed for 5w-20.


Fine and good (and you really need to produce some documentation) ..but the engine that allegedly "knew" what visc was in it was the numb and dumb 2002 (if you look back).

20 grades can vary a decent amount. There are those in the 7.x cSt to just shy of the 30 grade threshold. I can't even entertain the notion .. even if someone authoritatively asserted it (like some underling sent around for clinics feeding preferred rhetoric) that it would be possible for any system to differentiate viscosity to that level.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
The post 2004 engines are designed for 5w-20.
Namely 2005 and later. Just wanted to clarify since most 2004 engines are simply 2003 engines.

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
There has never been a report that I have seen in research or in the field (consumer vehicles) that has shown 20 wt. to cause more wear than 30, 40, or 50 wt.


Only if you disregard Scott Whitehead's hands-on experience in post OEM durability testing engine tear downs. Although it's pretty hard to disregard when the guy was actually lead engineer of the 4.6 3V.

 

[Jim Allen]

He's right about the PCM Gary. The PCM uses an oil temp sensor (bulk oil temp) and will lock out the VCT below a specified temp. There is an upper limit too. I have the programming data downloaded on one of my laptops and it it looks like it's locked out below 32F EOT and again at 270F EOT, gradually reducing above 250F.

As to the rest, I don't really know. I had strong indications from a source at Ford that hinted at grade 40 being the start of VCT problems on the modulars (not catastrophic failure but the PCM has a problem keeping the cam position within parameters), but I never was able to get him to detail anything. The phasers operate "hydraulically" so viscosity is a component. At some point, the electronic run out of adjustment via the pressure regulator. At what point that happens, I cannot say. Now, we have that TSB telling dealers to install 10W40 in '09 up 5.4L to eliminate phaser noise. Go figger?

In any case, I'm close to being able to datalog my '05 5.4L and find out what happens for myself. It may be a while before I get any useful info, but my intent is to thoroughly test with 5W20 and then run 10W30 in the engine at the next oil change (which is nearly a year away at this point).

 

[brsmith]

Well,if my '02 has a cam phaser, it must be on stun, because mine has never seen 5W-20 since the factory fill which departed 750 miles after purchase. As I stated, it has seen Chicago winters well below 18*F and Arizona summers of 120*F and has performed without fail on 10w-30 syn.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
Originally Posted By: modularv8
There has never been a report that I have seen in research or in the field (consumer vehicles) that has shown 20 wt. to cause more wear than 30, 40, or 50 wt.


Only if you disregard Scott Whitehead's hands-on experience in post OEM durability testing engine tear downs. Although it's pretty hard to disregard when the guy was actually lead engineer of the 4.6 3V.


Normally, you wouldn't disregard someone like him but: a) the info is pretty old, b) we have not seen a rash of DOA modulars.. or anything else approved for a steady diet of 5W20. At least on street vehicles.

I suspect his comments are more applicable to the HP/racing crowd, which is where he has gone to live and work. And the comments of his I have read are all in connection to high performance engines. Makes sense and a heavier viscosity is a component of that application.