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Jul 24, 2002
My wife got a new Honda Pilot calling for 5w-20. I was squeamish about the weight (and suspicious of the carmaker's CAFE motivations), but I decided to temporarily overlook the snake oil salesmanship and give Amsoil a try. I first tested it for 1000 mi. in an 1988 Acura Legend which had only used M1 5w-30 till then. I hate to encourage an already overzealous multi-level marketing empire, but I have been impressed. Some cold start lifter noise(even in warm weather) went away and city mileage increased about 1 mpg (about 6%). Oil loss (primarily from minor seal leaks) is on a par with the M1 5w-30. Amsoil is changing to GIII basestocks for this weight, so I hope M1 will make it in this weight. Anyone else have any experiences with this or the other 5w-20's or 0w-20s?
We used the old formula XL7500 5W20 in a friends Bonnevile Pontiac one summer, 3.8L V6, and it worked very well, mileage was up about 1.5 mpg from the XL75000 10W30. Since I don't care for anything less than a 10W30 in summer, I recommended he change it out on the next oil change to 10W30 for Summer and 5W30 HDD for winter, which he did. Since we didn't do an oil analysis I do not know the wear incurred, but I would guess it was higher with the 5W20 than the 10W30. I for one would not use the Group III XL7500 that came out after July 1.
With Amsoil making it's 5w20 with a group 3 base oil now, where does that leave the 5w20 market, are there any full synthetic 5w20s now? Or are they all group 2+ and group 3s now?
Every time I look and think about the 5W-20 stuff, I can see the Honda Talking Heads over ruling the engineers. Probably the same ones who left Thiokol (sp.) -maker of the Challanger Booster Rocket with the bad O-Ring design. [crushedcar]
I use the Amsoil 0W30 in one car and I saw no difference over the 10W30. Oil analysis also showed no difference. I was surprised in that the addititive package, per analysis, did nto seem to indicate any significant difference in the additives used, ie: ppm. The 0W30 is about $2 more/quart then the 10W30. The synthetic 10W30 is less then $1 more then the XL series. Other then the need for a 5W why would anyone use the XL series.
Originally posted by Spector: I use the Amsoil 0W30 in one car and I saw no difference over the 10W30. Oil analysis also showed no difference.
I may have missed this and if so tell me, but I was wondering, I've heard you talk about doing oil analysis with the amsoil on your own vehicles, and I gather it is more than one on each giving you trending, so I was wondering, have you taken the time to post a few or your analysis with some complete trending reports? I'd be interested in seeing some of yours since you would have trend analysis.
Patman, you asked about a full synthetic 5w-20. FWIW I sent Mobil an email the week before last asking if they planned a 5w-20 Mobil 1. They said yes, that they are testing formulations and that its introduction is planned for this Fall.
Bob, I posted 4 cars on the oil analysis board. Merc that is using the 0W30, A Toyota Camry that has the greatest number of samples, a Buick and the 3000GT. They were done about a month ago and are still there. http://home.earthlink.net/~armtdm/merc.htm Last sample is the 0W30. Oil changed at the end of 12 months, 8100 toatl miles on oil filter was changed at 6 months (Pure Ones) with about 22 ounces of oil. No oxidation, nitration or TBN requested of lab. [ July 26, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Spector ]
Sorry, I either missed them or looked and forgot which I do alot now adays.. I remember looking that now... [Duh!] Unfortunatly like I was explaining to bill, they are not a very good representation if details of conditions are not included. [I dont know] Also, makeup oil, filter changes with top offs and such, all of which can scew #'s and not provide a more acurate picture. I guess that's why I didn't make an effort to remember this. [ July 26, 2002, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Spector: At about 30K the wear metals really shot up but settled down after that. Were you doing some hard driving during this time or was it winter driving? What I find interesting is that as fuel dilution went up, wear metals went down.
LubeRube, gee if you delayed registering a few more days you could have been #200! [Big Grin] Hey Bob, did you ever think you’d get 200 registered users on this forum … so quickly? [Eek!] Anyway, I’m another of those who are skeptical of 5W20’s value. Sure, for average commuter or grocery gatherer duty, the stuff may be fine if changed out at the extreme service intervals but when left in for 6,000-7,000+ miles (as the manual suggests), I’d expect significantly diminished life expectancy of the engine. The same holds true if you drive the car hard or parking lot race. These oils are simply not designed for this kind of duty. I have no idea what my next car will be. A Acura RSX Type-R if they actually make and sell one here in the States? A Toyota Celica? If it’s a Honda product (and that’s all I’ve driven for the past dozen years) I’ll be forced with the same decision. I may just lease for a couple years until the auto manufacturers make a car I don’t mind buying and keeping for several years. Who knows? [I dont know] If that’s the case, I may use a Group II+ 5W20 like Pennzoil. If the motor doesn’t make it to 100,000 miles, who cares? [Big Grin] Also, leasing will free me up to drive a car I’d ordinarily be afraid to own in the long run … like a Ford Focus ZX3/SVT or a Mini-Cooper S. Back to oil: I heard that Red Line will ship a 5W20 if you request it … it’s just that they don’t advertise it. Maybe they will in another year or more? Still, I’d hate to pay Red Line prices … and then end up with an ultra-thin 5W20 oil. Hey Bob, Schaeffer is a relatively small (read: flexible) company in this field. Will they be coming out with a 5W20 anytime soon? If 5W20 is merely a 5W30 with less VII in it, it should be easy to produce. I’d expect that their large commercial/industrial customer base isn’t exactly screaming for this stuff, though. [Wink] Last I heard, Mobil 1 is coming out with a 5W20 weight. I just can’t remember where I heard this or how long it will be. [I dont know] D'oh! I wrote this off-line and JTC beat me to it. [Duh!] Al, I agree with you. Making our cars last 200,000+ miles of less-then-gentle use is not high on these folks’ list of priorities. [Roll Eyes]
Stuart, I remember that original M1 well I had a new 1978 Ford Fiesta, which I put 5w-20 M1 in. And such leaks! The car had an external oil pump whose seal was eaten alive by the oil, which just sort of ran out and down the engine. Ford fixed it under warranty (fooled them) and I went back to 10w-40.
JTC, Yea, those types of seal formulas didn't like the mostly PAO formulation at all. I think it was less than a year after that Mobil started putting in esters to improve seal compatibility and additive soluability. The oil then became a 5W30 overnight!
I don't understand why anyone would use AMSOIL XL7500 5w-20 now that they have group III basestocks. Mobil 1 5w-30 or 0w-30 is nearly the same viscosity and is much better oil with better specs. Pennzoil 5w-20 compares favorably to the AMSOIL 5w-20 and so does Chevron Supreme and these oils are less than $2./qt.
I don't remember the 5w20 Mobil 1, but when I first tried it in 1988, they only had the 5w30 Mobil 1. I ran it in my brand new 1988 Dodge Shadow ES Turbo, and that car hated it! I got a nasty valvetrain rattle on a cold start. I drained out the Mobil 1 5w30 and put back in Castrol XLR 10w30. The rattle went away. For the next 3 years I owned that car before I sold it to my sister, I continued using XLR, changing it every 2000 miles! (I was worried about the turbo heating up the oil and breaking it down)
A Acura RSX Type-R if they actually make and sell one here in the States? I already asked an Acura dealership. Ain't gonna happen in North America. The top-of-the-line will be the Type-S. I'm sure you'll be able to import RSX Type-R engines 5 years from now though. [Smile] Oz
[Off Topic!] Well, the dealership doesn't know everything ... and they want you to buy what's on their lot (right now!) and the last thing many will do is to give you an excuse to wait for a future model. I guess we'll see ... [I dont know] The RSX Type-S, in its current form (luxury egg) is simply not terribly interesting to me. I like the 6-spd tranny and the 200hp motor ... but not all the 'extras' which are not extra ... they are mandatory. Strip all the electronic junk and doo-dads off the car ... along with $3,000-$4,000 ... and I might consider it. [Wink] Also, making the car taller, more narrow, with questionable styling was a bad call as was devolving the suspension from A-arms back down to McCheapson struts ... not to mention the cable-actuated shifter. [Roll Eyes] --- Bror Jace "I was a patriot before being a patriot was cool." [Patriot]
Amsoil sent me some of the soon to be published specs for the new reformulated 5w-20 (with Group III base stocks). Here they are: EFFECTIVE DATE YEAR 2002 MONTH 06 VISC. 100 C 8.9 VISC. 40 C 45.0 VISC. INDEX 183 VISC. (W) 4497@-30 FLASH POINT 229 FIRE POINT 242 POUR POINT 46- TBN 10.2 4 BALL #1 SCAR .350 4 BALL #2 SCAR .380 ASH 1.00 NOACK 8.2 COMPANY API SPECIFICATION ID SJ/SL COMPANY 2 ILSAC SPECIFICATION ID GF-2/ GF-3 For comparison, here are the specs for the old pao formula: AMSOIL XL-7500 SYNTHETIC 5W-20 MOTOR OIL (XLM) Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 9.0 Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 49.6 Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 164 CCS Viscosity, cP @ (°C) (ASTM D2602) 3670 (-30) Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92) 230 (446) Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92) 244 (471) Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 97) -42 (-44) Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D-5800) 9.8 High Temperature/High Shear Viscosity @ 150°C and 1.0 X 106 s-1, cP (ASTM D4683) 2.9 Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172 @ 40 kgf, 150°C, 1800 rpm, 1 hour, Scar in mm) 0.40 Total Base Number >9.0 The new numbers seem better than they should be. I have to admit I'm becoming a fan of these lighter synthetic oils. I mean, why would Mobil 1 have debuted with a 5w-20 back in the 70s in an era dominated by 10w-40 specs? Any comments or observations?
We just bought a new Mazda MPV and it also "requires" 5w-20. I'm just too sure about running such a light weight oil. He is a post from an MPV hroup regarding the 5w-20 oils. Any truth to it???? ******************* Hi! Someone posted a guide to SL oils from 76 Oil Comapny a few weeks ago to this group. It does discuss the Honda/Ford requirements. Here is the section: "Ford and Honda have actually established test limits for SAE 5W-20 engine oils that go beyond the requirements of API SL/ILSAC GF-3. Ford requires either a double-length (160 hours) Sequence IIIF test or a double-length (128 hours) Sequence IIIE test with a maximum viscosity increase of 200%. The corresponding limits for the single- length tests are 275% maximum and 375% maximum, respectively. In addition, Ford's limit for high temperature deposits in the TEOST MHT- 4 test is 30 mg maximum compared with 45 mg maximum allowed under API SL/ILSAC GF-3. Similarly, Honda also requires a double-length Sequence IIIF test or a double-length Sequence IIIE test, but the viscosity limits are the same as the single-length tests. Obviously, meeting either of these requirements is very difficult. Again, higher quality base oils and/or significantly higher levels of antioxidant are required. To meet the requirements for new Ford and Honda vehicles, 76 Lubricants Company has introduced (May 2001) a new viscosity grade, SAE 5W-20, to its product line of 76 Super Motor Oils. 76 Super 5W-20 exceeds the performance requirements for API SL/ILSAC GF-3 and meets Ford and Honda's stricter test requirements described above." I would say based on the above requirements, that using any 5W-30 oil that is not specifically labled as Ford or Honda approved would probably void the warranty if push came to shove. Even Mobil states "It is important to follow your owner's manual recommendations in order to maintain coverage under your new-vehicle warranty". I've actually seen Ford branded 5W-20 at Wal-Mart. Cheers, Rod "I don't want a Yahoo Titanium Visa Card already!" Schaffter **************************-
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