5w-20; Ford 4.6L engines; UOA testing

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: JLTD

Guess I need to run the Amsoil OE I just bought for MUCH longer than 5000 miles! Make it 10k at least....and sample and leave it in.

If you do a lot of highway miles.... you might be good for 20k

 

[dnewton3]

Updated UOA for my 2007 Grand Marquis ... Again we see that inexpensive oil is good oil. This most recent update is more Rural King conventional lube in 5w-20. Cost me a whopping $1.59/qrt. As I vary one input, I hold others constant. Currently trying ST 5w-20 dino in the 07MGM now. So for now, 10k miles will be the OFCI mantra. I want to also try some 5w-30 dino for comparative purposes. In the future, I will probably extend the OCIs, but don't want to vary more than one input at a time. The UOA for the 05 unit is pending; car was wrecked and is being repaired (it's at 258k; will pull a UOA at 260k).

Code

veh ID (model yr)	07	05	07	05	07Base	05Base
Brand			RK	RK	Peak	RK	RK 	Peak 
type			conv	conv	syn	conv	conv	syn
grade 			5w-20	5w-20	5w-20	5w-20	5w-20	5w-20
filter		 	TG	TG	FU	FU	TG	TG
Oil miles		10k		10k	10k	10k	10k
Veh miles		120k		100k	240k	90k	230k
make up oil		2.0		1.5	2.0	1.2	2.4
UOA svc			Wix	pndg	Blst	Blst	Blst	Blst
				

Al			2		3	5	3	3		
Cr			1		0	0	1	0		
Fe			8		7	6	10	6		
Cu			1		0	3	1	5		
Pb			1		0	4	0	0		
Tn			1		0	0	0	0
Moly			42		69	54	37	65
Ni			1		0	1	0	0
Mang			0		0	0	0	0
Silver			0		0	0	0	0
Ti			0		0	1	0	0
Potas			1		5	0	2	1
Boron			14		63	15	2	43
Si			11		9	12	14	10
Sodium			5		10	12	4	14
Calcium			2260		1921	2571	2013	1942
Magn			23		13	11	15	20
Phos			689		679	681	612	615
Zinc			830		744	839	707	686
Barium			0		0	0	0	0


									
Sus V @ 210 				53.5	54.7	51.8	54.9
cSt V @ 100 C 		8.6		8.34	8.68	7.82	8.73
FP 					420	395	415	435
Fuel					<.5	<.5	<.5	<.5
Antifreeze		0		0	0	0	0
Water			0		0	0	0	0
Insol					.2	.1	.2	.3
TBN			3.3																										

 

[dave1251]

This is some nice data. With you adding 1 quart of makeup oil every 5K I do not foresee any reason not to do 20K OCI's.

 

[JLTD]

...and still more verification that OEM intervals are very conservative. I am certain the are allowing for thise owners that forget or don't pay attention at all.

 

[JLTD]

(Apologies for all the phone misspellings in the previous post)

 

[Onetor]

The more I read and listen. I realize that (most) everything we have been taught is not true. Even history is being re-written. Depressing......

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted by Onetor

The more I read and listen. I realize that (most) everything we have been taught is not true. Even history is being re-written. Depressing......

Let's not prepare to jump off a cliff here ... I think much of what we were told as kids (for my generation at least; I'm in my 50s) is that frequent oil/filter changes were good. Knowing and seeing what I have of much older vehicles (from 1950s to early 1970s) there was some truth to that mantra. If you didn't OFCI often, you'd get sludge build up from poor combustion control and lower ability of lubes to handle stuff with anti-agglomerates and detergents. Frequent was good back then. This does not translate well today's vehicles and lubes; not stuff made in the last couple of decades at least. Modern combustion controls (ECMs, fuel injection, etc) and good quality lubes (even inexpensive ones like the RK I use), all show a propensity to really do a great job. Everything you were taught may well have been true at some point, but today's (and even yesterday's) equipment and lubricants and filters do a great job. The things to glean from my UOAs are thus: 1) normal OEM OCIs are typically grossly under-rated; it's a default practice to protect the OEM warranty risks that costs them nothing 2) normal products can easily go well past the OEM limits; typically 2x is a safe factor I've seen in most cases; more certainly possible with proper data tracking 3) even extended applications of moderate distance show no benefits from premium products 4) wear rates don't change much overall; whatever your engine does for wear, is what it's going to do for wear. Only abuse or neglect will cause major shifts in wear 5) most engines can last FAR past where most folks will drive them (excluding true mechanical issues due to manufacturing defects, etc)

 

[spasm3]

dnewton, I'm curious how much of your data is DI , I agree and I run 7500+ mile runs on my MPFi engines, but do you have enough data specific with DI fuel dilution to point to the same thing, or is it all new territory.

 

[dnewton3]

The DI stuff is not totally "new", but I don't have a lot of data yet. I can make anecdotal observations; there are generalities that are appearing. But I've not focused on these DI engines yet, so I haven't run my true statistical analysis. The concern with DI is almost exclusively the issue of fuel dilution, and perhaps a side topic of soot loading. Wear metals generally are not showing a vastly different trend; most DI engines still wear fairly well. A good example would be the first gen 3.5L EB engines; they seem to wear decently despite the over fuel loading. Certainly at some point the fuel would be an overwhelming concern. But OEM OCI durations don't seem to bring any major fears into fruition.

 

[Aichiguy]

dnewton3; Any thoughts on using dino oil for a 0w 20 application? Is there some fear mongering going on here?

 

[dnewton3]

Depends ... 0w-20 is spec'd for some newer cars; that would infer they'd be under warranty. If under warranty, I generally advised to follow the OEM specs, as fiscally painful it might be to buy an expensive lube like that. Once out of warranty, then experimentation will lead one to the right conclusion. Is dino 5w-20 a good substitute for 0w-20? In some situations that would be a resounding yes. In others, it may not be. UOAs and PCs would be the right path here.

 

[bbhero]

I think you are really right about this dn3. Oils blended by Warren Distribution are just as capable as any other big name oil. And they can go for a long long long time has well. I used to run Castrol gold bottle in my Nissan Altima VQ and or Pennzoil Ultra the real Ultra... While great oils for sure.. And given the VQ motor propensity to shear oil viscosity a fair amount... Definitely not a bad choice for running either of those products. However for awhile now I have been running "lower" tower oils in my car. Mobil Super, Quaker State HM and now Peak high mileage 5w30... Just no need in the $30 per 5 qt container oil.. pay half that and just keep on rolling

 

[Backwoods41695]

Here are two UOAs from our cars at home. These are both 4.6L MGM cars; one an '05 and the other an '07, both identically equipped. My wife and I both drive nearly identical routes to work; about 32 miles each way and we only diverge in the last mile (she goes east and I go west). Because she occasionally works from home, I even drive her car to balance out the miles. One was run on dino oil; the other car was run on synthetic. Tell me, if you can, which sample is the syn and which the dino oil? Which is a brand-name lube and which a house brand? Tell me, if you think you can discern from the data, how many miles did I run each lube; did I run both the same amount, or one of them half of the other? How many miles are on the cars; are they similar or is there a large disparity in accumulated miles? What filters did I run? Did I "over-run" the OEM recommended O/FCI? Did I run the filters for a longer or shorter duration than the lube? Which used more make-up oil, or were they they same? It's OK to guess, but that's not very definitive. If you believe you know, then state WHY you feel your answer is right; what data proves your assertion correct? Obviously there is a method to my madness here. Most of you know how I like to test the boundaries and shatter myths. I'm trying to get some of you oil bigots to quit staring at the bottle label, and rather look at the results. Quit focusing on VOAs and brand names, and pay attention to the data you pay for in UOAs. What goes into a bottle is not nearly as important as what comes out of the crankcase. I'll be on vacation the next few days, away from the computer. I'll let you all discuss it and I will return this weekend to tell you which is which, and edit the fields to give the detailed info.

Html:

UOA sample #    A    B  
Brand        RK    Peak
type        dino    syn
grade         5w-20    5w-20
filter        TG    TG
Oil miles    10k    10k
Veh miles    90k     230k
make up oil    1.2    2.4


                        Blackstone Data       
                        w/ macro analysis      
                         Univ    std      
                        Avg    dev          
                        @ 5.2k

Al        3    3            4    1.1  
Cr        1    0            1    .5  
Fe        10    6            15    9.5  
Cu        1    5            5    2.9  
Pb        0    0            2    .3  
Tn        0    0
Moly        37    65
Ni        0    0
Mang        0    0
Silver        0    0
Ti        0    0
Potas        2    1
Boron        2    43
Si        14    10
Sodium        4    14
Calcium        2013    1942
Magn        15    20
Phos        612    615
Zinc        707    686
Barium        0    0


                                  
Sus V @ 210     51.8    54.9
cSt V @ 100 C     7.82    8.73
FP         415    435
Fuel        <.5    <.5
Antifreeze    0    0
Water        0    0
Insol        .2    .3
TBN          
TAN          

@dnewton3 I know this is an old thread and I hate to bring it back from the dead... but. I noticed your 90k mile Grand Marquis needed 1.2 quarts of makeup oil in a 10k run. Is that the actual amount of oil the car consumes in that time? Reason I ask (unrelated to the wear data) is my 2007 Grand Marquis with 88k miles uses 1/4 quart or so in 5,000 miles. Just wondering if that's normal for these engines to consume a bit.

 

[dnewton3]

Been several years ago, but yes, I believe that is the amount consumed for that 10k mile run.