Fuchs Titan GT-1 0W20 has been here for some time. Having trouble getting specs from Fuchs Oz distributor though.
5W-20 and 0W-20 - why not in turbocharged engines?
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Rexman, thanks for the links. Fuchs' oils are sold in the US under the Silkolene name, including their 0w-20. It has all ester basestocks. I've seen their oils in motorcycle dealerships.
unDummy, you can find the viscosity info you were referring to by playing with this neat viscosity calculator.
unDummy, you can find the viscosity info you were referring to by playing with this neat viscosity calculator.
I thought that lubricant viscosity went in the opposite direction as rpm?
The higher the rpm, the lighter the oil.
The higher the rpm, the lighter the oil.
Jay, the calc is too universal. I was looking(and can't find) a graph/chart of the actual viscosity curve of the motor oil from 0-300f+. They showed all their oil weights on one chart. Each weight had its own curve.
The force hype is that 20wt weight oil can't take the pressure in the engine. The 20wt UOAs are proof that it is a viable option-but why or how?
Any weight oil can provide the same protection as any other weight of oil if the running TEMPERATURE of the oil is taken into consideration.
What would YOU want? 20w50 at 300F or 5w20 at 180F?
Userfriendly, I firmly believe if oil temp can be maintained, then almost any thinner oil can be used and could possible provide the same protection as any thicker oil at a higher temp.
Anyone ever notice the directions on most of the kerosene/distillate type 5-10 minute engine flushes? Use on COLD engine and for only xx minutes usually at idle and without driving.
I'd love to know what the oil temp in all those turbo Subarus. Does Sube use coolant to cool the turbo? Are they using ballbearing or bushing type turbos?
The force hype is that 20wt weight oil can't take the pressure in the engine. The 20wt UOAs are proof that it is a viable option-but why or how?
Any weight oil can provide the same protection as any other weight of oil if the running TEMPERATURE of the oil is taken into consideration.
What would YOU want? 20w50 at 300F or 5w20 at 180F?
Userfriendly, I firmly believe if oil temp can be maintained, then almost any thinner oil can be used and could possible provide the same protection as any thicker oil at a higher temp.
Anyone ever notice the directions on most of the kerosene/distillate type 5-10 minute engine flushes? Use on COLD engine and for only xx minutes usually at idle and without driving.
I'd love to know what the oil temp in all those turbo Subarus. Does Sube use coolant to cool the turbo? Are they using ballbearing or bushing type turbos?
It could be that Subaru and others may not want 20wt oils in there engines because they don't wnat to see the average Joe Blow dumping in some cheap dino 20wt in the engien and blowing it up.
We know better than to do this but other less informed people can be counted on to do this very thing. So it may be a liability issue rather than a pure function or performance driven decision.
Jeff
We know better than to do this but other less informed people can be counted on to do this very thing. So it may be a liability issue rather than a pure function or performance driven decision.
Jeff
Undummy show me one good UOA were a turbo charged car ran 0W20 or 5W20!
Film strengh while not entirely determinded by viscosity is still a major factor. Film strength is not hype. If you get detanation in a forced induction application the stress is seveer. On ping with a 20wt could mean bearing damage were a solid 40wt might have prevented contact!
Film strengh while not entirely determinded by viscosity is still a major factor. Film strength is not hype. If you get detanation in a forced induction application the stress is seveer. On ping with a 20wt could mean bearing damage were a solid 40wt might have prevented contact!
Silkolene is Fuchs motorcycle oil brand - most likely why you find them in bike shops.
Automotive engine oils go under the Titan name - I haven't used the GT1 0W 20 yet,but use Supersyn in a Turbo.Yesterday my turbo man was telling me I should use thinner oils in turbos...he just laughed and shook his head when I asked damage could be done with lighter oils.Mind you,he's only dealing with the turbos,not the rest of the engine.
Ron in Melbourne will be Timken testing Fuchs Titan GT-1 0W20, Titan Supersyn 5W50 and Titan Super GTO 10W30 MC tonight. Last night he tested a German syn 5W50 of uncertain origin (more on that later) that has blown away everything tested before including Redline etc. It even ran at 120lbs with the oil bath removed!!. This one definitely needs farther investigation...s
JohnBrowning, I can't show a good UOA with 5w20 in a turbo. But, this was basically the same arguement with 5w20 in non turbo Fords/Hondas/Mazdas.
If you get detonation, you need either better tuning or better gas.
You know the oil, the one that shears to a 20wt always, has a good 7000mile UOA on a turbo Subaru. Don't expect the actual 20wt synth to be any worse.
Userfriendly, one way arguments don't work. Either you prove it wrong, or someone proves it right. The thread starter is negative, not positive. So, prove that 5w20 can't handle the heat. Don't flip the argument. I didn't start the thread saying 20wt is better than sliced bread. But, until proven otherwise, its as good as any other weight.
There are good/bad UOAs on many oils/weights with/without turbos. A conclusion would require multiple consistent either way UOAs.
Noone can ask why/whynot a manufacturer uses something or not. Ask the manufacturer and not anyone here. But, after working in manufacturing for certain manufacturers, I find that COST seems to be the biggest issue. Why change/improve an engine design for newer oils? Most people don't like change. Technology changes, cope with it.
Tooslick, that wasn't the chart but thanks for the heads up. But is is very similar and can be used in my argument. Notice that the viscosity of the 15w50 race oil @270F degrees is the same as the 5w20 @190F degrees. Get an oil cooler, increase pan capacity, and end up with the same protection.
I would guess that if a OEM manufacturer spec'd a water cooled ball bearing turbo(which costs more), then a 20wt synth should have no problem.
That means that the manufacturer would have to pay more. To me, this means that Subaru is cheaping out for profit. So, IMO, no manufacturer will use a 20wt with a turbo because it'll cost more.
I'll bump this thread up in a few years when cafe/epa/carb/... force the 20wt on everything, including diesels eventually.
If you get detonation, you need either better tuning or better gas.
You know the oil, the one that shears to a 20wt always, has a good 7000mile UOA on a turbo Subaru. Don't expect the actual 20wt synth to be any worse.
Userfriendly, one way arguments don't work. Either you prove it wrong, or someone proves it right. The thread starter is negative, not positive. So, prove that 5w20 can't handle the heat. Don't flip the argument. I didn't start the thread saying 20wt is better than sliced bread. But, until proven otherwise, its as good as any other weight.
There are good/bad UOAs on many oils/weights with/without turbos. A conclusion would require multiple consistent either way UOAs.
Noone can ask why/whynot a manufacturer uses something or not. Ask the manufacturer and not anyone here. But, after working in manufacturing for certain manufacturers, I find that COST seems to be the biggest issue. Why change/improve an engine design for newer oils? Most people don't like change. Technology changes, cope with it.
Tooslick, that wasn't the chart but thanks for the heads up. But is is very similar and can be used in my argument. Notice that the viscosity of the 15w50 race oil @270F degrees is the same as the 5w20 @190F degrees. Get an oil cooler, increase pan capacity, and end up with the same protection.
I would guess that if a OEM manufacturer spec'd a water cooled ball bearing turbo(which costs more), then a 20wt synth should have no problem.
That means that the manufacturer would have to pay more. To me, this means that Subaru is cheaping out for profit. So, IMO, no manufacturer will use a 20wt with a turbo because it'll cost more.
I'll bump this thread up in a few years when cafe/epa/carb/... force the 20wt on everything, including diesels eventually.
You can request from Mobil 1 VTA018A.pdf that has all their PCMOs plotted on a temp vs kinematic viscosity chart. Or PM me and I'll send you the file.
My mechanic says these engines seldom go above 210 F. The cylinders banks rest 180 degrees from each other, so they dissipate heat very well-- plus the aluminum alloy engine block and special oil cooler help too.
Yes, the turbo is water cooled and there's no need for a cool-down ever because the coolant continues to circulate through it even after the engine is switched off.
The Titan GT-1 0W20 seems tailor made for a cool running turbo like this--I'd be willing to give it a try if only we knew where to buy some!
Undummy all we have to do is look at Pablo's hundreds of UOA to prove that thick oils work well in Turbo application. Were is the proof once again for 20Wt in Turbo. Even Redlines chief Tech. recommends against it. Dave has no reason not to sell you a product he has for sale! Dave does not answere to C.A.F.E. or any OEM!
You can not compare Forced induction stress's to those seen on normaly aspirated engines either. The forces on bearings go up exponentialy with static and dynamic pressures. Detonation can happen for a number of reasons besides bad gas. All you have to do is have one injector run lean, PCM/ECM malfuntion, bad data from a sensor.
One detonation can be powerful enough to throw a rod through a block. While a single detonation seldom does this it is possable. If you do not think that is alot of force for an oil to take trying to keep the rod bearing and crank from kissing you are not being realistic! The burden of proof is not on the doubters. The burden of proof is on the one that proposes the idea!!
Their is no way for them to ever force the use of 20Wt. unless they go to a lubed for life system and banned all other weights from being sold! With PLEV already here it would be realy sily to do any ways!
You can not compare Forced induction stress's to those seen on normaly aspirated engines either. The forces on bearings go up exponentialy with static and dynamic pressures. Detonation can happen for a number of reasons besides bad gas. All you have to do is have one injector run lean, PCM/ECM malfuntion, bad data from a sensor.
One detonation can be powerful enough to throw a rod through a block. While a single detonation seldom does this it is possable. If you do not think that is alot of force for an oil to take trying to keep the rod bearing and crank from kissing you are not being realistic! The burden of proof is not on the doubters. The burden of proof is on the one that proposes the idea!!
Their is no way for them to ever force the use of 20Wt. unless they go to a lubed for life system and banned all other weights from being sold! With PLEV already here it would be realy sily to do any ways!
Rexmam my mate Ron in Melbourne ran Titan GT-1 0W20 on his Timken last night. Handled 140lbs pressure which is incredible. Not great on first run from cold but whatever the anti-wear is ZDDP, Moly or whatever, 2nd run from cold fantastic. Must be 'plating up'. The 10W30 excellent too. Doing the 5W50 Supersyn (yes Supersyn) tonight.
Not sure and I really am guessing. Interesting note the 10W30 is 12.5cSt @ 100C so if I'm correct that could be called a 40W?. Now wouldn't that be interesting to run against GC which I believe showing well because it's 'nearly' a 40W. The worlds largest independent supplier of industrial and speciality lubricants, Fuchs NA is at 17050 Lathrop Avenue, Harvey, Illinios 60426. PH 708-333-8900 or [email protected]
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