500mile Post Rod Bearings S54 BMW M Coupe

[ammolab]

A baseline Oil analysis just 500miles after SHOT Rod Bearing repair on 2002 BMW M Coupe. High Lead and Copper @ 60,100 miles told me to go in and inspect Rod Bearings..#2 was BAD. Wear now hard to estimate...did this 500mile lead and copper happen in the first 10 miles? If so, great! If it is wearing at this "Rate"? [censored], the 6000mile test will be worse than before. Not to panic as you can not plot a graph with one measurement. I will retest this oil @ 1500miles post repair and report. [img:left][/img]

 

[Brons2]

Is this the BMW 10w60?

 

[Quattro Pete]

So, in 500 miles this oil is down to a 50-grade. But as far as wear, nothing stands out at this point. Continue monitoring, as planned.

 

[ammolab]

Originally Posted By: Brons2

Is this the BMW 10w60?

Castrol TWS 10W-60 or at least that is what the shop said they put in there. It does looks like my 61,000mile test which I KNOW was TWS. And was cut down a bit more @ 6000miles!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

So, in 500 miles this oil is down to a 50-grade. But as far as wear, nothing stands out at this point. Continue monitoring, as planned.

It'll shear to a 40 eventually, LOL.

 

[JHZR2]

So you took a result, 21 Cu, 46 Pb, from over 6000 miles, last OCI - a result that most would ignore or say is high but "within spec", and then refurbished the engine. OK, Id say that was a good catch, and proof that single OCIs showing anomalies can be indicative of issues... So then you see some elevated numbers, which may actually be due to remnant oil or who knows what, and think that they may be indicative of a continued issue??? I'd call it break-in at this point. After doing the repair, did you flush the engine with oil? How many mini-OCIs did you put on before pulling this sample? How much oil has gone through the engine since the repair? If those metals are soft bearing metals, wouldnt you expect to see them as they wear in? If you want to be really careful with it, drain the oil, put new oil in, and then take another sample in 500 miles. Check the trend. Good luck!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Typically when we do a rebuild in-house it gets cheap dino for an hour run in and then more dino for a couple of hours more. THEN we start tracking it if we want to. If this is the first sample after the work was done it is unlikely to provide meaningful information.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

So you took a result, 21 Cu, 46 Pb, from over 6000 miles, last OCI - a result that most would ignore or say is high but "within spec", and then refurbished the engine. OK, Id say that was a good catch, and proof that single OCIs showing anomalies can be indicative of issues... So then you see some elevated numbers, which may actually be due to remnant oil or who knows what, and think that they may be indicative of a continued issue??? I'd call it break-in at this point. After doing the repair, did you flush the engine with oil? How many mini-OCIs did you put on before pulling this sample? How much oil has gone through the engine since the repair? If those metals are soft bearing metals, wouldnt you expect to see them as they wear in? If you want to be really careful with it, drain the oil, put new oil in, and then take another sample in 500 miles. Check the trend. Good luck!

Very well put! And this shows the VALUE of UOA's (and coming from me I know that will appear weird to some). When you have something that stands out as significantly as it did in this individual's initial UOA it SHOULD be considered as a POTENTIAL problem. And given this engine's history of rod bearing issues, combined with the elevated bearing material values in the UOA, the OP decided to check the conditions of the bearings and found a real issue. He used the tool as it is intended to be used: To monitor oil life, contamination levels and to indicate some potential impending issues through significant elevation of the detected components. A job well done.

 

[ltslimjim]

So, If I were to see a spike in soft/bearing relative metals compared to what I'm used to seeing(trend set, other than simply wearing out over time, that is with no spikes) would that indicate the need for bearings OR would you then confirm with oil pressure readings first/etc before tearing down? ...come to think of it. Does anyone know what rod bearings are made of in a Civic from my generation? (92 hatchback) ?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

So, If I were to see a spike in soft/bearing relative metals compared to what I'm used to seeing(trend set, other than simply wearing out over time, that is with no spikes) would that indicate the need for bearings OR would you then confirm with oil pressure readings first/etc before tearing down? ...come to think of it. Does anyone know what rod bearings are made of in a Civic from my generation? (92 hatchback) ?

You must consider this in the context of the vehicle at hand, which is known for rod bearing failures. The same spikes on a Ford Modular would be meaningless for example. And yes, you must know the bearing composition, which ties into my point in the previous sentence.

 

[ltslimjim]

^Yeah, I had that variable in mind but wanted to ask anyway. Is it practice to replace bearings on 'certain' vehicles/apps at certain mileage anyway? I've wondered this, being new myself, about whether a partial bottom-end rebuild would be worth it on my car. Not to get OT on 'my' app but in relation to the OP having concerns over the new bearings 'wearing in'.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

^Yeah, I had that variable in mind but wanted to ask anyway. Is it practice to replace bearings on 'certain' vehicles/apps at certain mileage anyway? I've wondered this, being new myself, about whether a partial bottom-end rebuild would be worth it on my car. Not to get OT on 'my' app but in relation to the OP having concerns over the new bearings 'wearing in'.

Honestly, the first time I ever heard of preventative bearing replacement was when I became a BMW owner. Guys do it on the S62 as well (not the same issue as with this engine).

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim

^Yeah, I had that variable in mind but wanted to ask anyway. Is it practice to replace bearings on 'certain' vehicles/apps at certain mileage anyway? I've wondered this, being new myself, about whether a partial bottom-end rebuild would be worth it on my car. Not to get OT on 'my' app but in relation to the OP having concerns over the new bearings 'wearing in'.

Honestly, the first time I ever heard of preventative bearing replacement was when I became a BMW owner. Guys do it on the S62 as well (not the same issue as with this engine).

Okay, cool. That answers my question there. Thanks. Would oil pressure be an issue with 'any' bearing that is rounding off or only on internal surface damage(along the side that bolts up to the crankshaft, etc)? thus allowing fluid escape along the oil delivery passageways? I suppose what I'm asking is if a bad connecting rod bearing would always cause oil pressure issues and if not, under what circumstances? I'd imagine you'd hear rod knock at that point?

 

[OVERKILL]

Depends on the engine and how much volume the oil pump moves. It also depends on where in the circuit the bearing that is worn is relative to the oil pump. There is pressure drop across the whole system, so if #1 is the first bearing fed with oil and #8 has a worn rod bearing, you are going to see less fluctuation (this is a generalization) in oil pressure than if #1 were the worn bearing. However, this stuff baffles me somewhat. I have buddies with 500+RWHP 302's that one guy for example, blew an intake gasket and ate 14L of coolant. Bearings looked MINT when he tore it down. Same car blew a head gasket, damaged the head...etc. Tear down, bearings looked mint. This is a car pushing 3x its stock power output, stock oiling system save for an HV oil pump (blower shares engine oil). Stock-style Clevite 77's in it. Oil was syntec 5w50 or M1 5w50 or 15w50 depending on what is on sale. Stock oil capacity.... blah blah blah. And then we have BMW, with these uber high-tech engines running on Unicorn pee (TWS) that kill rod bearings at STOCK power levels! Makes me wonder what the heck is going on. The Windsor is a pretty "basic" motor, and by today's standards is a bloody antique. Yet this thin-wall cast 60's tech can reliably make 3x its stock power output and have no rod bearing problems.

 

[ammolab]

I don't think "remnant oil" is an issue. Seven quarts came out for the repair and Seven quarts of oil went in the engine post repair. It drained without a pan for a week, and the pan was scrubbed. The new oil has 500 miles on it and I do think/hope the lead/copper are wear in. I do not think I need to drain the oil as I now KNOW the levels of Lead and Copper in this oil at this point. I just need to pull a sample at several additional points during this OCI. That will tell me if wear is stable, declining, or Heaven forbid INCREASING. I have no panic at this point, just concern. The numbers in this analysis can be residual metals, wear in metals, etc., but they are a valid starting point to judge the future health of this engine. More than one S54 has seen the Rod Bearing Fairy more than once.

 

[ammolab]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Typically when we do a rebuild in-house it gets cheap dino for an hour run in and then more dino for a couple of hours more. THEN we start tracking it if we want to. If this is the first sample after the work was done it is unlikely to provide meaningful information.

\ Con Rod bearings only...hardly a rebuild. It was pulled as a "Baseline" and I plan to track this same oil over the next several thousand miles. That is when I will get some useful information. All said in my Original Post. OA at drain time is fine if you don't ever spot an issue, but when you spot a fatal flaw and fix it (or maybe fix it)....you want to follow it up with more than a yearly check up.

 

[antonmnster]

Hopefully my m54 doesn't need preventative con-rod bearing replacement!

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: ammolab

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Typically when we do a rebuild in-house it gets cheap dino for an hour run in and then more dino for a couple of hours more. THEN we start tracking it if we want to. If this is the first sample after the work was done it is unlikely to provide meaningful information.

\ Con Rod bearings only...hardly a rebuild. It was pulled as a "Baseline" and I plan to track this same oil over the next several thousand miles. That is when I will get some useful information. All said in my Original Post. OA at drain time is fine if you don't ever spot an issue, but when you spot a fatal flaw and fix it (or maybe fix it)....you want to follow it up with more than a yearly check up.

Maybe you missed it... these are WEARING parts, designed to give up a bit of their surface and mate perfectly with the crank. You should expect a bit of bearing material for the first few changes. Not to mention if you didn't do the work yourself you don't know exactly what was in the pan or introduced by the tech during assembly. Thus no useful info, only more alarm to an already traumatized BMW owner! Good gawd, what other car would anyone tolerate this kind of failure from? I think it's outrageous.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: antonmnster

Hopefully my m54 doesn't need preventative con-rod bearing replacement!

FWIW, it is only the "S" series engines (S62, S54....etc) that have had bearing issues AFAIK. The "M" versions of the same engines; their more pedestrian counterparts apparently run forever.

 

[ammolab]

f

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Originally Posted By: ammolab

[quote=SteveSRT8]

Maybe you missed it... these are WEARING parts, designed to give up a bit of their surface and mate perfectly with the crank. You should expect a bit of bearing material for the first few changes. Not to mention if you didn't do the work yourself you don't know exactly what was in the pan or introduced by the tech during assembly. Thus no useful info, only more alarm to an already traumatized BMW owner! Good gawd, what other car would anyone tolerate this kind of failure from? I think it's outrageous.

Steve: Where did I say I expected no bearing material in my first few changes? I just want to track the wear throughout the first Oil change. I see no reason to "flush and dump" at this level of wear as the oil for one change is about 90 bucks! I love my Wife, My dog and MY CAR!..what else can I do but "tolerate them"? The Rod bearing Job was 1900 bucks and it's a TEN YEAR old car. I had a 6year/100,000 mile warranty. That is better than Chryslers 5year/100,000. I bet I paid $1900 in Tax Dollars just to bail out Chrysler. Surely Chrysler will fix an Auto Tranny in years when it goes belly up.