5/40 group III questions

dragboat · Feb 14, 2003

In trying to gather some information on these new oils I am wondering if a 5/40 group III without a PAO or a Ester in the formulation can meet these requirements.

BMW High Performance in the US
BMW Longlife outside the US
Mercedes 229.3
Porsche
VW 505/502/500
and
ACEA A3 B3 B4

The 10/30 Kendall meets ACEA A3

The synthetic line that is

These dang MSDS's on some show proprietory CAS#'s along with the group III Cas #,,I believe that a couple of these U.S. 5/40's " Might" be a group III/PAO or small partial Ester formulation but it's so difficult to confirm.

http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/productlineup/motoroils/default.html

[ February 15, 2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

WeyounDS9 · Feb 15, 2003

I know valvoline Bashing here is popular but ValvolineSynPower 5w-40 meets those (except I think your BMW 229 is MB 229)

Fred...

dragboat · Feb 15, 2003

Thanks Fred,I edited and corrected to include the two BMW specs in which I guess are on in the same.

Have you used Valvoline 5/40 ? Do you have a MSDS on that oil?

EDIT:
I wanted to look at the Valvoline webite,saw a 10/50 and thought wow! Then realized I was on the Australian website then I thought to look for a European Valvoline,,look at this groovy 0/30 EXL available over there! Man,I wish the US could have these oils. People would buy them,at least I would

http://www.valvolineeurope.com/english/products/lubricants/pcmo/synpower.html

[ February 15, 2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

WeyounDS9 · Feb 15, 2003

Here is specs of SynPower:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

API SL 5W-30 10W-30 20W-50 15W-50 - - - - -
API SJ 5W-30 10W-30 20W-50 15W-50 5W-40
API CF 5W-30 10W-30 20W-50 15W-50 5W-40
API Energy Conserving 5W-30 10W-30 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ACEA A1/B1 5W-30 10W-302 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ACEA A3/B3 - - - - - - - - - - 20W-50 15W-50 5W-40
ILSAC GF-2 & GF-3 5W-301 10W-30 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
GM 4718M(Corvette) 5W-30 10W-30 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
JASO VTW 5W-30 10W-30 20W-50 15W-50 - - - - -
Porsche - - - - - - - - - - 20W-50 15W-50 5W-403
Mercedes Benz 229.1 - - - - - - - - - - 20W-50 15W-50 5W-403
VW 500.00, 502.00, & 505.00 - - - - - - - - - - 20W-50 15W-50 5W-403
BMW High Performance - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 5W-403
Rolls Royce - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 5W-403
Bentley - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 5W-403

Test 5W-30 10W-30 20W-50 15W-50 5W-40
Vis @ 100°C (cSt) 10.85 10.30 20.55 20.43 14.13
Vis @ 40°C (cSt) 60.46 64.04 149.66 145.72 91.53
Viscosity Index 173 149 160 163 159
Spec Gravity @ 60°F 0.850 0.850 0.847 0.850 0.847
API Gravity @ 60oF 34.9 34.9 35.6 35.6 35.6
Total Base No. 9 9 9 9 9
Flash COC (°C) 242 250 238 238 238
Pour Point (°C) -42 -42 -42 -42 -42
CCS cP (°C) 4200 (-30) 4400@-25C 4600@-15C 5000@-20C 3,300@-25C
MRV TP-1 cP (°C) 9,100@-35C 7,400@-30C 9,500@-20C 15,300@-35C 15,300@-35C
NOACK, wt. % loss 12 8 8 9 - - - - -
Sulfated Ash 1.1 1.1 1.1 1.1 1.1
Phosphorus, wt.% 0.10 0.10 0.10 0.10 0.11

1 SAE 5W-30 does not currently meet ILSAC GF-3
Except European fuel economy.
Formal OEM approval

This information only applies to products manufactured in the following location(s): USA, Canada.

Effective Date: Expiration Date: Replaces: Author's Initials: Code
07-12-01 5/31/2002 DJD
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I copied and pasted a file they emailed me.
Not all the typed wrapped around ok, and the 5w-40 in the file sometimes reads 5w-403 when I paste it, but I think its still readable.

Yes there is an MSDS, it doesnt say much, in the 5w-40 , but the other weights are all group III, so presumably so is the 5w-40.

Fred...

[ February 15, 2003, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: palmerwmd ]

TooSlick · Feb 15, 2003

Dragboat,

If you do a survey of the synthetics available in europe that meet those specs, most of them are PAO/Ester formulations. You may also find some Group III/PAO/Ester blended basestocks that meet those specifications.

It is particularly difficult to meet the VW TDI diesel tests for high temp piston deposits and ring sticking that are part of the ACEA "B4" test matrix without adding some PAO to the mix. I read a good SAE paper recently that went into this test in some detail ....

TooSlick

Al · Feb 15, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
Dragboat,

If you do a survey of the synthetics available in europe that meet those specs, most of them are PAO/Ester formulations. You may also find some Group III/PAO/Ester blended basestocks that meet those specifications.

It is particularly difficult to meet the VW TDI diesel tests for high temp piston deposits and ring sticking that are part of the ACEA "B4" test matrix without adding some PAO to the mix. I read a good SAE paper recently that went into this test in some detail ....

TooSlick

What's the paper # maybe I'll spend the $10 to get it. Is it worth it??

TooSlick · Feb 15, 2003

Al,

I have it in my files at work ....

If I owned a new turbodiesel, I'd certainly read it. Title is something like "Formulation effects on a severe service passenger car diesel application". Paper is authored by the Infinium additive company UK.

Big difference between the Group III oils and the PAO/Esters in terms of high temp piston deposits in the TDI engine.

Ted

Losiho · Jun 7, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:

If you do a survey of the synthetics available in europe that meet those specs, most of them are PAO/Ester formulations. You may also find some Group III/PAO/Ester blended basestocks that meet those specifications.

It is particularly difficult to meet the VW TDI diesel tests for high temp piston deposits and ring sticking that are part of the ACEA "B4" test matrix without adding some PAO to the mix. I read a good SAE paper recently that went into this test in some detail ....

TooSlick

Tooslick - I've dragged out this old thread after doing a search.

I am currently using Castrol Formula R 5w30 (not available in the USA). It is almost the same as Castrol TXT Softec in Europe.

The Castrol Australia tech department told me it it a Group III hydrocracked oil. However, it also meets A3, B3, B4 and BMW LL. Does that mean it may contain some PAO/Esters in the mix ?

http://www.castrol.com.au/products/pdf/Formula R Synthetic 5W-30.pdf

jaj · Jun 7, 2004

Losiho

The BMW LL-98 and MB 229.3 specs are very similar, and they can be met with a group 3 oil. The BMW LL-01 spec calls for a "chemical synthetic" base oil, and by implication requires a PAO or ester base.

In my (extensive) search for BMW LL oil products, I've observed that the 5w-X oils that meet the LL spec meet the 98 spec, and the 0w-X oils meet the 01 spec. I have found no exceptions in over a year of looking, and that includes "exotics" like AGIP, MOTUL and FUCHS.

There's no practical way to know what's in the mix, but if you're using a "BMW LL" oil that's 5w-30, then chances are good it's a Gr. III base oil that meets LL-98.

If you want more info on the LL specs, check out the Motul Japan site - http://www.motul.co.jp/eg/fact_sheets/maker_approval.html - and look at the BMW section. Use Microsoft's Internet Explorer, by the way, other browsers won't work.

Cheers
JJ

Losiho · Jun 7, 2004

Thanks for that

RL331 · Jun 7, 2004

I believe Valvoline 5W-40 SynPower will conform to what you wrote above as a Group 3, I have been using it for a while and it has been great. Also, Castrol Belgian Syntec will also conform to that as a Group 4 - I'm going to give the Castrol a try at my next change.

thedawk · Jun 7, 2004

I see that Castrol 0w-30 meets the BMW LL-01 spec. I know there's been a lot of Castrol bashing because of them being group III, but if the BMW LL-01 spec means that it is PAO base then maybe it is better than the other Group III weights. Here's a link to the page:

http://www.castrolauto.com/products/default.asp?prod_mp=1

Just click on the Syntec and then select Grades on the upper left of the screen.

MikeW · Jun 8, 2004

I thought the latest thinking was that the BC 5w40 was group III? Based on the above info that any BMW LL01 oil is true synthetic, than the BC 5w40 is group III. That oil only meets LL98.

quote:

Originally posted by RL331:
I believe Valvoline 5W-40 SynPower will conform to what you wrote above as a Group 3, I have been using it for a while and it has been great. Also, Castrol Belgian Syntec will also conform to that as a Group 4 - I'm going to give the Castrol a try at my next change.

[ June 08, 2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: MikeW ]

5/40 group III questions

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