42% efficient IC engine on the horizon...

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
42% is the power station before in house consumption, transmission and storage...it's really really good.


Err, no:

40% is what a coal fired power plant can achieve.
45% is what a big ship diesel engine can achieve (#2 fuel oil)
50% is what a peaking big diesel can achieve (60MW size piston engine).
60% is what a nat-gas turbine with auxiliary steam plant can achieve.

TODAY.

70% is what a hydrogen turbine is supposed to be able to achieve in a few years.

where % = energy delivered / energy in fuel

Originally Posted By: Blueskies123
The engine might some day 42% efficient but then you lose power thru the transmission, differential, wind resistance, and tires. I do not know if it is true but I read somewhere that if you are driving at 60 mph less than 10% if the energy is propelling the car.


My S600 takes only about 6HP to cruise a flat level straight road at 60 MPH.
My wife's Prius only about 4 HP.

That includes air resistance, tire resistance, ...

Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Assuming Shannow's 42% value is correct and factoring in the average electric losses of 7.4% in Florida, your electric vehicle has a starting efficiency of about 35% without factoring heat loss in the engine.


Shanon was not giving a good set of thermal efficiency numbers (above).

There have been rumors that the latest F1 engines are operating near 50% thermal efficiency (today!)
 
Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
Originally Posted By: Shannow
42% is the power station before in house consumption, transmission and storage...it's really really good.


Err, no:

40% is what a coal fired power plant can achieve.


Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
Shanon was not giving a good set of thermal efficiency numbers (above).


What ???

42% generated efficiency with 5.5% in house load equals what ???

39.7%

I didn't include in house load (exactly as I stated I didn't), as I'm sure that the 42% claimed doesn't include accessories either. Also, depending on how much power loss environmental systems add, I was referring to base line.

That's a typical 1,000F 2600psi single reheat subcritical. The stuff that was installed in US and Oz in the '80s.

Modern...and by modern, I mean THAT'S NOW...ultrasupercriticals can crack 47%, or 60% with waste heat recovery...that's NETT, BTU to BTU conversion efficiency

http://www.gereports.com/supercritical-t...st-performance/


Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
45% is what a big ship diesel engine can achieve (#2 fuel oil)
50% is what a peaking big diesel can achieve (60MW size piston engine).
60% is what a nat-gas turbine with auxiliary steam plant can achieve.


the steam plant ISN'T Auxiliary, it's an integral part of the CCGT process. 60% is the theoretical modelled at standard conditions. Install them somewhere in the world, and knock 3-4% off that...hot weather ?...hmmmm...

Anyway, as I said, you have to transform and transmit those, lose 10%. Then battery round cycle efficiency...otehr readers will get the drift.

Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
70% is what a hydrogen turbine is supposed to be able to achieve in a few years.


Wow, they aren't running them TODAY ?

Where are all the hydrogen mines that are going to feed these, or do we have to factor in the conversion efficiency of THAT too ?

Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
where % = energy delivered / energy in fuel


Yes, that's the definition of efficiency...been using it for 28 years as an engineer in the power industry, yes including as the efficiency engineer, and the head of the efficiency section.



Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
My S600 takes only about 6HP to cruise a flat level straight road at 60 MPH.
My wife's Prius only about 4 HP.

That includes air resistance, tire resistance, ...


This I gotta see...got a link to those power numbers ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
70% is what a hydrogen turbine is supposed to be able to achieve in a few years.

Wow, they aren't running them TODAY ?

Where are all the hydrogen mines that are going to feed these, or do we have to factor in the conversion efficiency of THAT too ?

If only we could build a pipeline to that unlimited supply that's right there for the taking
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
the steam plant ISN'T Auxiliary, it's an integral part of the CCGT process. 60% is the theoretical modelled at standard conditions. Install them somewhere in the world, and knock 3-4% off that...hot weather ?...hmmmm...


Yes it is part of the Power PLANT, no it is not a part of the turbine.

Quote:
Anyway, as I said, you have to transform and transmit those, lose 10%. Then battery round cycle efficiency...otehr readers will get the drift.


I made no comment on use of the electricity, only in the thermal efficiency of taking a fuel and delivering power to the grid.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
70% is what a hydrogen turbine is supposed to be able to achieve in a few years.


Wow, they aren't running them TODAY ?


Materials problem. Hydrogen oxygen burns rather hot (tungsten melting temperatures), it can also burn with a slight excess oxygen which pits the turbine blades and eats the housing and seals.

And then there is the problem of producing the hydrogen in the first place.
 
GE's LMS100 aeroderivative gas turbine is touted as the most efficient in simple cycle operation with 46% LHV.
 
For those not familiar with heat rate (that's how we describe the efficincy of our power stations, energy in (BTU, or MJ) to energy out (KWh)...

2015
Coal - 32.5% efficienct
Petroleum - 31.9% efficient
NGas - 43.3% efficient
Nuke - 32.6% efficient.
 
Nevertheless, the topic of the OP was 50% IC efficiency, and we have those kinds of engines right now.

Whether power plants can get that much energy to the grid not not is not relevant to the question at hand.
 
Are you for real ???

What was YOUR contribution to the topic then (and you might even need to re-read THAT too)...
 
Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
My contribution is that there are already existing engines over 50% TE.

Wasn't the OP about standard gasoline reciprocating piston engines, not gas tubines or industrial diesels?
 
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