Hypothetical question. If you pay twice as much for synthetic and change every 6K, and pay half as much for dino but change it twice as often (3K), what benefit does the synthetic have over the dino? Cost wise, it's equal. I would guess the synthetic gave better protection, and would not sludge over time like the dino oil. Any other benefits?
3K dino vs 6K synthetic
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There's also the filter and the time spent changing the oil.
I would add 5,000 with a service rated oil "passenger car". Way over 5,000 with a heavy duty oil " Delo 400, Mobil 1300 Rotella,for example and 10,000 miles "maybe" more miles with a premium syn oil. Spent some time studying the used oil anaylsis forums .There is alot of information on how the oils hold up. Then think about what is comfortable for you. I don't think with the oils available now there is no best or benefits . There are the new Mobil 5,000 mile and 7,500 mile oils ,lots of choices.
I'm thinking you'd pay more than twice as much for a good syn vs. dino. If you look at some of the excellent UOA's turned in by good dino's, I can't see a use for syn other than arctic cold climates or turbos.
[ February 25, 2005, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: mikemc ]
[ February 25, 2005, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: mikemc ]
Theres the time spent changing oil,
the cost of the oil filter
less "dry" starts after changing oil
added protection of a syn if you over heat or get into a high speed chase.
Personally I would use syn oil anyway. I used to change it every 3k. Now I extend ocis primarily for convenience, and to get my moneys worth outta the oil (no point in throwing away perfectly good oil).
the cost of the oil filter
less "dry" starts after changing oil
added protection of a syn if you over heat or get into a high speed chase.
Personally I would use syn oil anyway. I used to change it every 3k. Now I extend ocis primarily for convenience, and to get my moneys worth outta the oil (no point in throwing away perfectly good oil).
This brings up a very good point. All of these oil sales have allowed me to purchase some very good synthetic oils (M10w30 and Maxlife synthetics) at dino prices. I just filled my Tacoma with the M1 0w30(the sl) and It was almost ceremonial for me. My first dino to synthetic conversion in a vehicle with 24k miles.
I figure I change the oil twice a year in that truck with conventional oil. I pulled a sample and will send it off from the 6 month old conventional that only had 2400 miles on it. If it shows good overall health I will begin 1 year intervals right now. If I can make it I think this will be a good thing.
My oil attitudes and beliefs are changing.
I figure I change the oil twice a year in that truck with conventional oil. I pulled a sample and will send it off from the 6 month old conventional that only had 2400 miles on it. If it shows good overall health I will begin 1 year intervals right now. If I can make it I think this will be a good thing.
My oil attitudes and beliefs are changing.
FWIW, I used to do the 3k dino OCIs. I now go way over 6k with synth. I have gone up to 11k and could've pushed more according to the UOA. So, instead of doubling the OCI, I see it as 3x or more.
Currently I have changed my driving habits. According to the owners manual, I fall in the severe 3 month/3k mile OCI. Instead, I practice 1 year OCIs, going 4x the dino interval in the owners manual.
Currently I have changed my driving habits. According to the owners manual, I fall in the severe 3 month/3k mile OCI. Instead, I practice 1 year OCIs, going 4x the dino interval in the owners manual.
I've averaged about 15,000 miles between oil changes using synthetic lubes for the past 27 years and haven't come close to wearing out an engine yet. So I think your cost comparison is somewhat misleading.
Any synthetic that only lasts for 6000 miles in a mechanically sound engine is a very poor quality product and not worth the money....
TS
Any synthetic that only lasts for 6000 miles in a mechanically sound engine is a very poor quality product and not worth the money....
TS
Once you get into extende OCI's, you also have to think about changing the filter anyway and if you don't have a bypass system the contaminents can start to get high but 10K with a good filter and synth is probably do-able for most vehicles without a TBN boost.
Cheaper to go with dino
.
It will offer sufficient protection and will not sludge with 3K OCI's in normal applications.Even with 5K OCI's a good dino won't kill an engine.
Dino vs Synthetics in my application
where the recommended OCI is 10K(using a synthetic).
With 10K OCI's:
M1 0W40 cost $35 bucks factoring in the oil filter cost($8 bucks,cheapest I can get'em).
Chevron Supreme dino with 5K OCI's and reusing the same filter for the second 5K comes out to be $23 bucks.
I save $12 bucks by going dino here,not shabby.
It will offer sufficient protection and will not sludge with 3K OCI's in normal applications.Even with 5K OCI's a good dino won't kill an engine.
Dino vs Synthetics in my application
where the recommended OCI is 10K(using a synthetic).
With 10K OCI's:
M1 0W40 cost $35 bucks factoring in the oil filter cost($8 bucks,cheapest I can get'em).
Chevron Supreme dino with 5K OCI's and reusing the same filter for the second 5K comes out to be $23 bucks.
I save $12 bucks by going dino here,not shabby.
Of course now that the new Mobil 7500 is out, you get a "syn" at a reg. price. I think for people that use a real syn like M1 and change every 3-5K can switch to this keep the 3-5K and save some money and keep the "syn" name in Grp3 and a a little PAO group.
why not 4 k dino or 5k dino
3k is a jiffy lube "marketing science" number.
Toyota says 6 months or 5 k on new cars
who do YOU trust - Toyota or Jiffy Lube
I'l take Yota
3k is a jiffy lube "marketing science" number.
Toyota says 6 months or 5 k on new cars
who do YOU trust - Toyota or Jiffy Lube
I'l take Yota
Sorry but I don;t trust toyota...
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news02/toyota_sludge.html
But I also don;t go to jiffy lube
The oil can last for several thousand miles and maintain good wear numbers. Its the combustion by-products and other junk in the oil that keeps me from very extended drains. So its the long term engine cleanliness thing I like.
Depending on the engine, the problem is oil is just splashed on a lot parts. It isn't constantly flowing over them to remove buildup. It sits long enough that it cooks.
I have posted horrible looking engine internals from a car with around 7K mile avg drains on dino and occasional Mobil1.
Generally, I think 6K miles using synthetic is fine for 50/50 city/highway in a newish car - particularly rated as ULEV or LEV - that is burning cleanly.
Depending on the engine, the problem is oil is just splashed on a lot parts. It isn't constantly flowing over them to remove buildup. It sits long enough that it cooks.
I have posted horrible looking engine internals from a car with around 7K mile avg drains on dino and occasional Mobil1.
Generally, I think 6K miles using synthetic is fine for 50/50 city/highway in a newish car - particularly rated as ULEV or LEV - that is burning cleanly.
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A synth is a waste at anything under a 6 month OCI. It can be a waste there too, but a 6 month OCI is a good compromise for those who can't go one year or don't put on mega mileage (15k or more a year). Very few here are capable or willing to do any type of OCI that doesn't fall evenly into a year. I think it's a behavioral conditioning type thing with the seasons (not a slam ..an observation).
A synth is also a waste if you don't have an extreme climate or service that can take advantage of it.
With very few exceptions, our UOA section is overflowing with stellar 3-5k OCIs on dinos ..and probably an equal number of 3-5k OCIs on synths. Yet very few ever go beyond that. In fact, in the absense of a problem, you could probably count the UOAs without taking off your shoes that have come anywhere close to having the oil "used up".
Now I'll also concede that it's your money to waste and there's little difference in wasting money on a synth or a few more toppings on your pizza ..or going to Wally World and finding more stuff to take up space in your house. But for any "frequent flyer" type driver ..I'd never have such a frequency of service as 3k/3m. To me, that's like a perpetual pitstop on a never ending NASCAR race ...a necessary evil that gets in your way. That's just me, I'm into certain perceptions of effiency with time and effort.
That is, I still want to "exceed the need" that everyone else here appears into ...I just don't like to do it nearly as often.
A synth is also a waste if you don't have an extreme climate or service that can take advantage of it.
With very few exceptions, our UOA section is overflowing with stellar 3-5k OCIs on dinos ..and probably an equal number of 3-5k OCIs on synths. Yet very few ever go beyond that. In fact, in the absense of a problem, you could probably count the UOAs without taking off your shoes that have come anywhere close to having the oil "used up".
Now I'll also concede that it's your money to waste and there's little difference in wasting money on a synth or a few more toppings on your pizza ..or going to Wally World and finding more stuff to take up space in your house. But for any "frequent flyer" type driver ..I'd never have such a frequency of service as 3k/3m. To me, that's like a perpetual pitstop on a never ending NASCAR race ...a necessary evil that gets in your way. That's just me, I'm into certain perceptions of effiency with time and effort.
That is, I still want to "exceed the need" that everyone else here appears into ...I just don't like to do it nearly as often.
I don't believe in the theory of engine wear being higher early in the life of the oil. If you think about it, it really doesn't make sense. The longer oil stays in the engine, the more it gets broken down by the deposits left in it by the combustion process. It's physically impossible for the lubrication qualities of an oil to improve with use.
Every time you change oil, you disturb the AW additives films that build up on parts in the valvetrain. I suspect this is partially due to the increased detergency of the fresh oil, which "competes" with the AW additives in trying to adhere to the metallic surfaces.It takes some time - perhaps 1000 miles - for these additive films to re-form themselves. During this period you tend to see more valvetrain wear, ie significantly higher iron levels. There are also some higher molecular weight polymers that form as a result of oil oxidation. It has been theorized in SAE papers that these polymers also contribute to improved wear protection with used oils. There was an SAE paper co-authored by Ford from 2004 that went into this subject in detail. These were bench tests done under carefully controlled conditions with new and used engine oils.
Bearing wear is a different story ...generally the cleaner the oil, the less bearing wear you get. These parts generally function under hydrodynamic, or "full flow" lubrication conditions and don't depend on very thin, AW additive films....
Bearing wear is a different story ...generally the cleaner the oil, the less bearing wear you get. These parts generally function under hydrodynamic, or "full flow" lubrication conditions and don't depend on very thin, AW additive films....
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