2022 Mazda CX-9 - High Performance Lubricants PCMO 10W-20 - 4,897 Miles

[Eugenius]

So what sort of warranty claim are you envisioning here where lubricant selection/performance is suspect but "why" isn't clearly enough defined by that choice that it requires a court battle?

Lol, Thank God not me... I am like a good church boy, changing oil religiously using only approved oil and changing it every half of recommended OCI. Also using OEM oil during warranty in 90% of the time
It was hypothetically speaking due to some of the claims here and my doubts that a well maintained engine will be denied a warranty claim even with wrong viscosity and wrong approvals. But the assumption was, it was good oil like HPL

 

[OVERKILL]

Lol, Thank God not me... I am like a good church boy, changing oil religiously using only approved oil and changing it every half of recommended OCI. Also using OEM oil during warranty in 90% of the time
It was hypothetically speaking due to some of the claims here and my doubts that a well maintained engine will be denied a warranty claim even with wrong viscosity and wrong approvals.

Well yes, that's logical. You have to give them a reason to go looking. My question was more as to along what lines would result in a warranty claim taking place for a well maintained engine? Clearly, varnish/sludge wouldn't indicate well maintained, so we are then talking some sort of catastrophic failure like eating a cam lobe, tossing a rod...etc. In those situations, it's unlikely they'd even look at the oil as being a contributing factor.

 

[doublebase]

It depends on the manufacturer, some are more forgiving than others. I swear GM absolutely loves to deny warranty claims. When I worked for GM years ago we’d have engines laying on the floor waiting for oil analysis to come back to deny warranties. I personally know GM techs that get their oil changed at their own dealer, using the dealers own oil. Because they don’t want to void their warranty. Because they’ve seen it. They’ve seen GM deny warranty claims on engines (I have too). Now if GM wasn’t going through so many engines? They probably wouldn’t be so strict about it.

And then there’s the customer themselves. You buying cars from that dealer every year for your family and servicing them there? You can bet the factory rep, service manager, and general manager of that dealer are working lock step to get your claim approved. It’s good business. If you’re not? You will have a fight on your hands...bring service records, bring receipts and it better not contain an oil without a certification and the wrong weight.

But none of that^^^ will happen. Chances are if you take care of your car you could run Honey Nut Cheerios through your engine every 7,500 miles and not need an engine warranty claim.

 

[Eugenius]

It depends on the manufacturer, some are more forgiving than others. I swear GM absolutely loves to deny warranty claims. When I worked for GM years ago we’d have engines laying on the floor waiting for oil analysis to come back to deny warranties. I personally know GM techs that get their oil changed at their own dealer, using the dealers own oil. Because they don’t want to void their warranty. Because they’ve seen it. They’ve seen GM deny warranty claims on engines (I have too). Now if GM wasn’t going through so many engines? They probably wouldn’t be so strict about it.

And then there’s the customer themselves. You buying cars from that dealer ever year for your family and servicing them there? You can bet the factory rep, service manager, and general manager of that dealer are working lock step to get your claim approved. It’s good business. If you’re not? You will have a fight on your hands...bring service records, bring receipts and it better not contain an oil without a certification and the wrong weight.

But none of that^^^ will happen. Chances are if you take care of your car you could run Honey Nut Cheerios through your engine every 7,500 miles and not need an engine warranty claim.

wow, thanks for the info
I am hearing here and there that the new GM DI engines are very far from being called reliable, this why there are so many of them dead after even good care and maintenance.
I am also hearing a lot of bad about Ford's new Bronco engine, which is hit and miss, but most miss.
Also Toyota turbo-4 DI engines in Tundras
If the product is not fully baked (designed/well-built) then there is no reason to give any excuses to a car manufacture to reject warranty

BMW has a free maintenance program which I was using, and doing DIY oil changes in between using only OEM oil. So all bases are covered.
I would do the same if I purchased a car with engine reliability in question - do OCI at a dealer and DYI oil change with all approvals in between

 

[doublebase]

wow, thanks for the info
I am hearing here and there that the new GM DI engines are very far from being called reliable, this why there are so many of them dead after even good care and maintenance.
I am also hearing a lot of bad about Ford's new Bronco engine, which is hit and miss, but most miss.
Also Toyota turbo-4 DI engines in Tundras
If the product is not fully baked (designed/well-built) then there is no reason to give any excuses to a car manufacture to reject warranty

BMW has a free maintenance program which I was using, and doing DIY oil changes in between using only OEM oil. So all bases are covered.
I would do the same if I purchased a car with engine reliability in question - do OCI at a dealer and DYI oil change with all approvals in between

You’re welcome, but I don’t know how much info I provided. I just think when dealing with a car under warranty, just keep your records and receipts because anything can happen (but usually doesn’t). Enjoy your cars.

 

[drtyler]

wow, thanks for the info
I am hearing here and there that the new GM DI engines are very far from being called reliable, this why there are so many of them dead after even good care and maintenance.
I am also hearing a lot of bad about Ford's new Bronco engine, which is hit and miss, but most miss.
Also Toyota turbo-4 DI engines in Tundras
If the product is not fully baked (designed/well-built) then there is no reason to give any excuses to a car manufacture to reject warranty

BMW has a free maintenance program which I was using, and doing DIY oil changes in between using only OEM oil. So all bases are covered.
I would do the same if I purchased a car with engine reliability in question - do OCI at a dealer and DYI oil change with all approvals in between

The Tundra engine is twin turbo V6.

 

[Eugenius]

The Tundra engine is twin turbo V6.

Yes, my mistake

 

[doublebase]

The Tundra engine is twin turbo V6.

I was just talking to someone yesterday who owns one of these, so far he loves it. Power, half decent fuel economy. Only thing he’s had with it is the radiator louvers closed accidentally when he was doing 90 mph the other day. He says, well I probably shouldn’t be doing 90.

Back to HPL. Sounds like it’s robust, I’ll have to check some VOA’s around here to take a look at the additive package. Imagine it’s pretty substantial. Curious what the amount of PAO actually is too.

Edit- found the VOA. Looks nice.

High Performance Lubricants PCMO 10W-20 VOA

Here's a virgin sample of High Performance Lubricants PCMO 10W-20. Starting TBN is 13.0. It has a good bit of moly and lots of magnesium. The aluminum is from the add pack.

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[frankbee3]

Because the 10W-30 contains VII. I didn't want an oil with VII due to the fuel dilution. It was in the winter when he put the oil in so we didn't want to use their SAE 30 due to possible pumping issues. Therefore, the 10W-20 was the way to go.

It performed well, still holding 8 cSt viscosity despite 3% fuel dilution. The wear numbers are low considering the engine is still breaking in.

The values of that spreadsheet are fairly accurate. The margin of error is provided on it as well.

I didn't notice that HPL had 10w20 in their catalog. I am a fan of motor oils that don't have VII's added. I have seen rings in engines in cars and boats that were reasonably well maintained packed with hard deposits and stuck. I have read that oils with lots of polymers can contribute to that.

When I lived in a more temperate climate, I used straight weight oils like Shell Rotella and Chevron Delo, typically in 30 weight for my fleet of old cars, pickups and lawn mowers.

 

[The Critic]

I didn't notice that HPL had 10w20 in their catalog.

It is listed in the dropdown:

Passenger Car Engine Oil

High Performance Lubricants’ passenger car engine oil is a multi-synthetic high performance motor oil made with the best choices of additive chemistry. Oils formulated with specifically chosen esters can help to minimize intake valve deposits, maintain clean engines and provide elastomer...

www.advlubrication.com

 

[A_Harman]

A friend bought a new CX-9 last year. He decided the sample the OEM fill and it had 4.6% fuel dilution at just 211 miles. He put in High Performance Lubricants PCMO 10W-20 to run for close to 5k miles. The fuel dilution has come way down so hopefully that's clearing up.

The HPL PCMO 10W-20 held it's viscosity well. The 27 abs/cm oxidation is from ester. The TBN, despite 5k miles and 2.9% fuel, is still very strong. Enjoy.View attachment 104645

It would be interesting to run a check on the Widman viscosity mixing calculator and see if the measured fuel dilution values applied to the virgin KV100 values yield the same viscosity listed in the UOA. Is it a case of straight dilution, or dilution and shear together? My guess is straight dilution, but that's a lot of dilution in 211 miles. Maybe it idled a long time before being delivered.

It's a little unsettling that the copper number has stayed high on the second sample.

 

[RDY4WAR]

It would be interesting to run a check on the Widman viscosity mixing calculator and see if the measured fuel dilution values applied to the virgin KV100 values yield the same viscosity listed in the UOA. Is it a case of straight dilution, or dilution and shear together? My guess is straight dilution, but that's a lot of dilution in 211 miles. Maybe it idled a long time before being delivered.

It's a little unsettling that the copper number has stayed high on the second sample.

The first run was only 211 miles with 27 Cu which is 128 ppm / 1k miles. The second sample with the 10W-20 was for 4,897 miles with 26 Cu which is 5.3 ppm / 1k miles. I expect that rate to keep dropping.

The virgin sample of this oil, from the same batch, had a KV100 = 8.4 cSt and KV40 = 55.9 cSt. The UOA shows KV100 = 8.0 cSt so not much change despite the 2.9% fuel.

 

[A_Harman]

But 26 ppm is still a lot of Copper at 5000 miles.

The first run was only 211 miles with 27 Cu which is 128 ppm / 1k miles. The second sample with the 10W-20 was for 4,897 miles with 26 Cu which is 5.3 ppm / 1k miles. I expect that rate to keep dropping.

The virgin sample of this oil, from the same batch, had a KV100 = 8.4 cSt and KV40 = 55.9 cSt. The UOA shows KV100 = 8.0 cSt so not much change despite the 2.9% fuel.

View attachment 109288

The oil has actually done well against the 2.9% fuel dilution:

The Widman calculator indicates that it should have dropped to 7.74 cSt with that amount of fuel, so the HPL is resisting dilution. Since I'm currently battling a severe fuel dilution problem on my Buick Verano, HPL lubes may be good to try. Redline's website also mentions that oil containing esters are good at resisting fuel dilution.

I recognize the much longer OCI, but 26 ppm of Copper still seems like a lot for 5000 miles. It's even higher than the Iron.

 

[PimTac]

Would this copper be coming from the cooled EGR that Mazda has on their SkyActiv 2.5T?

 

[A_Harman]

Would this copper be coming from the cooled EGR that Mazda has on their SkyActiv 2.5T?

Could be if it is a Copper-brazed heat exchanger.

 

[RDY4WAR]

I figured it was leaching from somewhere. A third data point will tell.

I referenced this UOA for the factory fill on Cu.

2017 CX-9 First UOA on Factory Fill

My understanding is Mazda FF usually contains tons of moly. So where's the moly?

bobistheoilguy.com

At 2500 miles, it had 75 ppm Cu so I assumed it has copper/bronze parts somewhere that's leaching.

 

[Thermo1223]

Ya fuel dilution at 211miles isn't even mentioning. I would have waited a full OCI to get some sort of baseline.

 

[bulwnkl]

I meant to ask:

Is this fluid in particular, or HPL in general, believed by those here to resist (reduce) fuel dilution (the way Renewable Lubricants’ products were shown to do years ago in the Audis), or is this simply thought or hoped to show less breakdown in the face of the fuel?

 

[OVERKILL]

I meant to ask:

Is this fluid in particular, or HPL in general, believed by those here to resist (reduce) fuel dilution (the way Renewable Lubricants’ products were shown to do years ago in the Audis), or is this simply thought or hoped to show less breakdown in the face of the fuel?

Nothing actually "resists" fuel dilution. It's possible by virtue of avoiding shear and experiencing more oxidative thickening to counter it, but that's not the same thing.

 

[bulwnkl]

Data from my own fleet, and I had thought the A6s, demonstrated otherwise. You answered my question, though, so thank you.