2022 HD Street Bob 114 Valvoline VR1

[CSR111]

Extracted a sample of oil to see if I wanted to stay with VR1. It sheared to 40w again in only 1600 miles. They must have spilled some of my sample because I sent them a full bottle plenty to test flashpoint. Wear numbers are fine but I think I will switch to synthetic. I'm disappointed for sure. VR1 works great in Twin Cam Harleys but shears in the M8.

 

[EvoMan]

Well that’s a bummer. I remember your first sample and commented on the low/sheared viscosity. I have the same oil in my 107 M8. I’m at about 2K on the oil. I was planning on going to 3K but your back-to-back reports with that amount of sheared viscosity make me nervous. I don’t agree with Blackstone saying the shearing is not something to worry about. From everything I’ve read and seen on YT, an oil staying “in grade” is one of the most important, if not the most important thing to look at in a UOA. I’ll probably go with M1 15W-50. There’s a UOA on here where a guy went almost 5.5K with M1 15W-50 on a 107 M8 with good results.

What oil are you planning on going to?

2017 HD 107 has high copper wear

I'm not good at reading oil analysis, anybody have any thoughts on this?

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Overfill]

Maybe try VR1 SAE 40
or Mobil 1 20w-50 V-twin

 

[sunruh]

50wt is 83.11 or 16.3cst so yours is not close

now, the real question should be:

is that what is causing your high copper?

 

[CSR111]

50wt is 83.11 or 16.3cst so yours is not close

now, the real question should be:

is that what is causing your high copper?

The oil reacting with the copper in the oil cooler is the reason for the high copper. All the M8 UOA I've seen show high copper.

 

[CSR111]

Well that’s a bummer. I remember your first sample and commented on the low/sheared viscosity. I have the same oil in my 107 M8. I’m at about 2K on the oil. I was planning on going to 3K but your back-to-back reports with that amount of sheared viscosity make me nervous. I don’t agree with Blackstone saying the shearing is not something to worry about. From everything I’ve read and seen on YT, an oil staying “in grade” is one of the most important, if not the most important thing to look at in a UOA. I’ll probably go with M1 15W-50. There’s a UOA on here where a guy went almost 5.5K with M1 15W-50 on a 107 M8 with good results.

What oil are you planning on going to?

2017 HD 107 has high copper wear

I'm not good at reading oil analysis, anybody have any thoughts on this?

bobistheoilguy.com

It's between Mobile 1 15w-50 and Valvoline 4t 20w-50 synthetic. I used M1 V-twin for years in my previous twin cam stuff but it has a nasty habit of thickening to 60w in as little as 3k miles. I thought about the synthetic VR1 but it's not available locally. Conv VR1 works great in TC96/103 engines. In the M8 the oil also cools the heads (oil passage between the pair of ex valves) and the heat from that may be causing the shear.

 

[EvoMan]

I hear ya about the M1 V-Twin getting thick. I wonder how it would do in your M8 since it seems to shear oil. The M1 V-Twin might stay in grade from shearing. Just thinking out loud.

Ya probably can’t go wrong with the M1 15W-50 or the Valvoline 4T synthetic. Because your shearing problem concerns me, I’ve got a 5 qt jug of M1 15W-50 coming from Amazon. S/B here Thursday. I’ll be draining the VR1 out and putting the M1 in.

 

[kschachn]

It's between Mobile 1 15w-50 and Valvoline 4t 20w-50 synthetic. I used M1 V-twin for years in my previous twin cam stuff but it has a nasty habit of thickening to 60w in as little as 3k miles. I thought about the synthetic VR1 but it's not available locally. Conv VR1 works great in TC96/103 engines. In the M8 the oil also cools the heads (oil passage between the pair of ex valves) and the heat from that may be causing the shear.

Heat causes mechanical shear of the VII?

 

[CSR111]

Heat causes mechanical shear of the VII?

It's a bit of a mystery why conv VR1 is shearing in my M8 Harley. I do 99% of my riding when temperatures are below 85 degrees and I don't sit and idle in traffic. 20w-50 VR1 has been the gold standard of conventional oil for use in air cooled Harleys. The M8 engine is different since it uses either liquid or oil cooling in the cylinder heads. Most M8's have oil cooled heads. Oil flows through a small passage between the two exhaust valves to help cool the head which on Harleys get very hot.

 

[kschachn]

It's a bit of a mystery why conv VR1 is shearing in my M8 Harley. I do 99% of my riding when temperatures are below 85 degrees and I don't sit and idle in traffic. 20w-50 VR1 has been the gold standard of conventional oil for use in air cooled Harleys. The M8 engine is different since it uses either liquid or oil cooling in the cylinder heads. Most M8's have oil cooled heads. Oil flows through a small passage between the two exhaust valves to help cool the head which on Harleys get very hot.

Well first off it's never the base oil that shears. Those molecules are far too small so it's always the VII. And VII differ in shear resistance. Not all are the same in that regard. I have no idea what kind are in VR1.

But beyond that have you positively confirmed that this is shear and not fuel dilution? Blackstone is incapable of determining that with their methods of estimating fuel. You need to have a different analysis done via gas chromatography to better determine fuel. That way you can see what is actually influencing a viscosity deviation.

 

[sunruh]

even with the stoners inadaquate fuel dilution you can tell by the flash point...but somehow yours was short and wasnt done.
your previous test with a 415 would be pretty low on fuel dilute

m1 15w50 redcap did not hold up in my MixMaster of DOOM...in under 200mi it went to a susvis of 71.9, fuel
i also tested VR1 20w50 motorcycle specific for the same amount and it gave susvis 82.3, fuel please note that is NOT 50wt either!
what did hold up was VR1 sae50wt with a susvis of 90.3, fuel <0.5 and flash 465 !!! remains to this day the hightest flash ive seen

 

[kschachn]

even with the stoners inadaquate fuel dilution you can tell by the flash point...but somehow yours was short and wasnt done.
your previous test with a 415 would be pretty low on fuel dilute

m1 15w50 redcap did not hold up in my MixMaster of DOOM...in under 200mi it went to a susvis of 71.9, fuel
i also tested VR1 20w50 motorcycle specific for the same amount and it gave susvis 82.3, fuel please note that is NOT 50wt either!
what did hold up was VR1 sae50wt with a susvis of 90.3, fuel

Meh they have a problem with flash point as well. It's not entirely their fault since the ASTM test does have relatively low repeatability. However this inaccuracy is also what contributes to inaccurate fuel dilution estimations.

 

[CSR111]

What would cause fuel dilution on a good running low milage epa lean stock motorcycle?

 

[kschachn]

What would cause fuel dilution on a good running low milage epa lean stock motorcycle?

I do not know. What I was pointing out is that based on Blackstone's methods you don't know either way. If it were me I'd rather be sure since either condition has different possible mitigations, but maybe not for you.

 

[sw99]

https://www.amazon.com/Ultralub-20W-50-Full-Synthetic-Engine/dp/B0892NLPZS/ref=sr_1_5?crid=11U984A6I6D60&keywords=20w50+full+synthetic+motor+oil+5+gallons&qid=1698856967&sprefix=20w50+full+synthetic+motor+oil+5+gallons%2Caps%2C107&sr=8-5&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.f5122f16-c3e8-4386-bf32-63e904010ad0

This 20w50 has become my favorite full synthetic oil for the bikes. Not sure if you can get in in smaller quantities.

 

[loneryder]

I would try the Valvoline syn 20-50. I started using it in my twin cams because the valvetrain was a little quieter and it was a bit cheaper at Walmart.

 

[Overfill]

What would cause fuel dilution on a good running low milage epa lean stock motorcycle?

Where are there distinctly higher contact pressures in a harley engine from any other non-shared sump engine that could permanently shear the VII?

Anyway, some possibilities:

• Oil was out of spec to start
• Oil sample doesn't represent sump
• Oil testing has low precision
• Oil was permanently sheared to lower vis
• Oil was diluted with residual fuel fractions

I don't see where this motor can shear Oil like that, so my opinion is still on fuel dilution. It's pretty common from all the uoa's that have come through this forum.

 

[CSR111]

I would try the Valvoline syn 20-50. I started using it in my twin cams because the valvetrain was a little quieter and it was a bit cheaper at Walmart.

I changed to Valvoline 20-50 4t syn and top end engine noise is about the same. Hopefully my next UOA is better.

 

[CSR111]

Where are there distinctly higher contact pressures in a harley engine from any other non-shared sump engine that could permanently shear the VII?

Anyway, some possibilities:

• Oil was out of spec to start
• Oil sample doesn't represent sump
• Oil testing has low precision
• Oil was permanently sheared to lower vis
• Oil was diluted with residual fuel fractions

I don't see where this motor can shear Oil like that, so my opinion is still on fuel dilution. It's pretty common from all the uoa's that have come through this forum.

I agree something doesn't make sense. Air cooled Harleys are not known to shear oil. VR1 has been golden in the twin cam engines. The only fueling issue I can imagine on a stock M8 is a cracked or warped (plastic) intake manifold but I would think there would be other symptoms if that were the case. I switched to Valvoline 4T synthetic to see if it makes any difference next UOA.

 

[kschachn]

Where are there distinctly higher contact pressures in a harley engine from any other non-shared sump engine that could permanently shear the VII?

Anyway, some possibilities:

• Oil was out of spec to start
• Oil sample doesn't represent sump
• Oil testing has low precision
• Oil was permanently sheared to lower vis
• Oil was diluted with residual fuel fractions

I don't see where this motor can shear Oil like that, so my opinion is still on fuel dilution. It's pretty common from all the uoa's that have come through this forum.

Welcome to Blackstone.