Keep us informed; exchange with an on the lot new car would be good... but I expect unlikely. Asking tech's who may or may not have experience in manual 'boxes to dive-in to your transaxle.... well, 'Ida know...
2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil
- Thread starter pleopard
- Start date
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by pleopard
I've switched from being a loyal VW owner to a Toyota owner. My car is a 2019 Corolla Hatchback XSE with 10,000km, made in Japan. My hope, is that I will find better reliability in this car than with the VWs I owned in the past...Yes, 36km on the odometer due to a dealership transfer (across the city).
How large is your city? Would you clarify these seemingly discrepant statements please?
I've switched from being a loyal VW owner to a Toyota owner. My car is a 2019 Corolla Hatchback XSE with 10,000km, made in Japan. My hope, is that I will find better reliability in this car than with the VWs I owned in the past...Yes, 36km on the odometer due to a dealership transfer (across the city).
How large is your city? Would you clarify these seemingly discrepant statements please?
Last edited:
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by pleopard
I've switched from being a loyal VW owner to a Toyota owner. My car is a 2019 Corolla Hatchback XSE with 10,000km, made in Japan. My hope, is that I will find better reliability in this car than with the VWs I owned in the past...Yes, 36km on the odometer due to a dealership transfer (across the city).
How large is your city? Would you clarify these seemingly discrepant statements please?
He does indeed mean, 36.0 km.... not 36 k km... like about 22.5 miles
Originally Posted by pleopard
I've switched from being a loyal VW owner to a Toyota owner. My car is a 2019 Corolla Hatchback XSE with 10,000km, made in Japan. My hope, is that I will find better reliability in this car than with the VWs I owned in the past...Yes, 36km on the odometer due to a dealership transfer (across the city).
How large is your city? Would you clarify these seemingly discrepant statements please?
He does indeed mean, 36.0 km.... not 36 k km... like about 22.5 miles
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by pleopard
I've switched from being a loyal VW owner to a Toyota owner. My car is a 2019 Corolla Hatchback XSE with 10,000km, made in Japan. My hope, is that I will find better reliability in this car than with the VWs I owned in the past...Yes, 36km on the odometer due to a dealership transfer (across the city).
How large is your city? Would you clarify these seemingly discrepant statements please?
He does indeed mean, 36.0 km.... not 36 k km... like about 22.5 miles
Okay, so as I now understand it, his car currently has about 10,000km (~ 6200 miles) on it but the trip from one dealership to another amounted to 22.5 miles.
Got it.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by pleopard
I've switched from being a loyal VW owner to a Toyota owner. My car is a 2019 Corolla Hatchback XSE with 10,000km, made in Japan. My hope, is that I will find better reliability in this car than with the VWs I owned in the past...Yes, 36km on the odometer due to a dealership transfer (across the city).
How large is your city? Would you clarify these seemingly discrepant statements please?
He does indeed mean, 36.0 km.... not 36 k km... like about 22.5 miles
Okay, so as I now understand it, his car currently has about 10,000km (~ 6200 miles) on it but the trip from one dealership to another amounted to 22.5 miles.
Got it.
MolaKule, I am interested in your take on the Redline paper, below-attached, speaking about the relative "sliperriness" of different manual transmission lubricants. Also, their claim that the coeff. of friction for their manual transmission lubricants has an inflection to zero as the relative speeds between surfaces goes to zero... I would have thought that this last parameter.... which they claim averts stick/slip behaviour... well, I would not think that the coeff. of friction SHOULD go to zero. Would that not actually CAUSE stick-slip behaviour of the synchro ring / synchro sleeve / cone-clutch on the speed-gear?
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by pleopard
I've switched from being a loyal VW owner to a Toyota owner. My car is a 2019 Corolla Hatchback XSE with 10,000km, made in Japan. My hope, is that I will find better reliability in this car than with the VWs I owned in the past...Yes, 36km on the odometer due to a dealership transfer (across the city).
How large is your city? Would you clarify these seemingly discrepant statements please?
When I purchased it in July 2019, it had 36km on it. Now it has just under 11,000km. Calgary is quite large, geographically. Population wise, only 1.3 million.
Originally Posted by pleopard
I've switched from being a loyal VW owner to a Toyota owner. My car is a 2019 Corolla Hatchback XSE with 10,000km, made in Japan. My hope, is that I will find better reliability in this car than with the VWs I owned in the past...Yes, 36km on the odometer due to a dealership transfer (across the city).
How large is your city? Would you clarify these seemingly discrepant statements please?
When I purchased it in July 2019, it had 36km on it. Now it has just under 11,000km. Calgary is quite large, geographically. Population wise, only 1.3 million.
Well, the dealership has a Toyota engineer on site Tuesday next week. They've asked me to drop off the car Monday afternoon. The engineer will test drive the car the following morning. Finally, some action! If the Toyota engineer states everything is normal, I will be very unimpressed.
Cdn17Sport, you noted something about the possibility of a linkage or clutch issue and the more I think about this, you may be right and all of this could be related more to clutch fluid / fluid temp than transmission fluid. Last summer I noticed a very slight issue with torque application (throttle application) after shifting, whereby I would feel a slight pulsation in the forward thrust (if you can call it thrust in a fairly low-powered car such as this lol) as I got back on the throttle. I recall thinking that it felt like clutch slip, as if the clutch wasn't fully engaged. I wonder if that is somehow related to all of this.
Cdn17Sport, you noted something about the possibility of a linkage or clutch issue and the more I think about this, you may be right and all of this could be related more to clutch fluid / fluid temp than transmission fluid. Last summer I noticed a very slight issue with torque application (throttle application) after shifting, whereby I would feel a slight pulsation in the forward thrust (if you can call it thrust in a fairly low-powered car such as this lol) as I got back on the throttle. I recall thinking that it felt like clutch slip, as if the clutch wasn't fully engaged. I wonder if that is somehow related to all of this.
Well, it is more the issue of the clutch fully and completely DISENGAGING that would affect shifting. Your comment about it not fully engaging... would to some extent mean that the general point of engagement is higher up the pedal... i.e. higher up from the floor.... so that it would perhaps IMPROVE the shifting? I don't know... but I will be very interested in hearing what the Toyota engineer knows and says on Tuesday. Cheers - and good luck!
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
MolaKule, I am interested in your take on the Redline paper, below-attached, speaking about the relative "sliperriness" of different manual transmission lubricants. Also, their claim that the coeff. of friction for their manual transmission lubricants has an inflection to zero as the relative speeds between surfaces goes to zero... I would have thought that this last parameter.... which they claim averts stick/slip behaviour... well, I would not think that the coeff. of friction SHOULD go to zero. Would that not actually CAUSE stick-slip behaviour of the synchro ring / synchro sleeve / cone-clutch on the speed-gear?
MolaKule.. mebe erase that request... (or you could speak a few words to it...?) I finally found out where to find the White Papers.
All, to the extent you do NOT know where the White Papers are.... it is in the Forums listing. You need to scroll down. Here is the link on manual transmission lubricants (it takes you to p. 8 of same: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...nual-transmission-lubricants#Post4755122). Note, also, you need to scrol to page 8 or page 9 to see discussion about the relative speed of surfaces, and friction coefficients.
MolaKule, I am interested in your take on the Redline paper, below-attached, speaking about the relative "sliperriness" of different manual transmission lubricants. Also, their claim that the coeff. of friction for their manual transmission lubricants has an inflection to zero as the relative speeds between surfaces goes to zero... I would have thought that this last parameter.... which they claim averts stick/slip behaviour... well, I would not think that the coeff. of friction SHOULD go to zero. Would that not actually CAUSE stick-slip behaviour of the synchro ring / synchro sleeve / cone-clutch on the speed-gear?
MolaKule.. mebe erase that request... (or you could speak a few words to it...?) I finally found out where to find the White Papers.
All, to the extent you do NOT know where the White Papers are.... it is in the Forums listing. You need to scroll down. Here is the link on manual transmission lubricants (it takes you to p. 8 of same: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...nual-transmission-lubricants#Post4755122). Note, also, you need to scrol to page 8 or page 9 to see discussion about the relative speed of surfaces, and friction coefficients.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by pleopard
Well, the dealership has a Toyota engineer on site Tuesday next week. They've asked me to drop off the car Monday afternoon. The engineer will test drive the car the following morning. Finally, some action! If the Toyota engineer states everything is normal, I will be very unimpressed.
Cdn17Sport, you noted something about the possibility of a linkage or clutch issue and the more I think about this, you may be right and all of this could be related more to clutch fluid / fluid temp than transmission fluid. Last summer I noticed a very slight issue with torque application (throttle application) after shifting, whereby I would feel a slight pulsation in the forward thrust (if you can call it thrust in a fairly low-powered car such as this lol) as I got back on the throttle. I recall thinking that it felt like clutch slip, as if the clutch wasn't fully engaged. I wonder if that is somehow related to all of this.
You know, it seems to me that a machine-assembled- or in any case partially machine assembled transaxle comprising synchro sleeves, cone clutches on speed-gears, and brass synchro rings... well it seems to me hard for that to get muffed-up related to assembly errors. Now it could be related to a dimensional error on the mfr of the sub-components... but...
What I'm saying here is that it may, indeed, be an external-to-the-transaxle factor that is causing probs. First and second gears are the hardest to synchronize... in some cases they are equipped with double or sometimes triple synchronizers to counter this difficulty-to-synchronize matter. So if the external circumstance is going to affect any synchronizers in the box... it may, indeed, affect those two, first. Provided it is not linkage related.
Just my thoughts.
Well, the dealership has a Toyota engineer on site Tuesday next week. They've asked me to drop off the car Monday afternoon. The engineer will test drive the car the following morning. Finally, some action! If the Toyota engineer states everything is normal, I will be very unimpressed.
Cdn17Sport, you noted something about the possibility of a linkage or clutch issue and the more I think about this, you may be right and all of this could be related more to clutch fluid / fluid temp than transmission fluid. Last summer I noticed a very slight issue with torque application (throttle application) after shifting, whereby I would feel a slight pulsation in the forward thrust (if you can call it thrust in a fairly low-powered car such as this lol) as I got back on the throttle. I recall thinking that it felt like clutch slip, as if the clutch wasn't fully engaged. I wonder if that is somehow related to all of this.
You know, it seems to me that a machine-assembled- or in any case partially machine assembled transaxle comprising synchro sleeves, cone clutches on speed-gears, and brass synchro rings... well it seems to me hard for that to get muffed-up related to assembly errors. Now it could be related to a dimensional error on the mfr of the sub-components... but...
What I'm saying here is that it may, indeed, be an external-to-the-transaxle factor that is causing probs. First and second gears are the hardest to synchronize... in some cases they are equipped with double or sometimes triple synchronizers to counter this difficulty-to-synchronize matter. So if the external circumstance is going to affect any synchronizers in the box... it may, indeed, affect those two, first. Provided it is not linkage related.
Just my thoughts.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by pleopard
Well, the dealership has a Toyota engineer on site Tuesday next week. They've asked me to drop off the car Monday afternoon. The engineer will test drive the car the following morning. Finally, some action! If the Toyota engineer states everything is normal, I will be very unimpressed.
.
Please make sure to ask that factory engineer drive that loaner car you drove in the same conditions as well! He needs a reference that can drive the issue home and make it clear as you mentioned even a dealer tech acknowledged the situation with your vehicle, have that engineer also speak to him! Everything that puts the situation in your favor.
Well, the dealership has a Toyota engineer on site Tuesday next week. They've asked me to drop off the car Monday afternoon. The engineer will test drive the car the following morning. Finally, some action! If the Toyota engineer states everything is normal, I will be very unimpressed.
.
Please make sure to ask that factory engineer drive that loaner car you drove in the same conditions as well! He needs a reference that can drive the issue home and make it clear as you mentioned even a dealer tech acknowledged the situation with your vehicle, have that engineer also speak to him! Everything that puts the situation in your favor.
Cdn17Sport, yes, I realize that's counter to my complaint, but it was a bit unusual nonetheless. I haven't detected it since.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by pleopard
Well, the dealership has a Toyota engineer on site Tuesday next week. They've asked me to drop off the car Monday afternoon. The engineer will test drive the car the following morning. Finally, some action! If the Toyota engineer states everything is normal, I will be very unimpressed.
.
Please make sure to ask that factory engineer drive that loaner car you drove in the same conditions as well! He needs a reference that can drive the issue home and make it clear as you mentioned even a dealer tech acknowledged the situation with your vehicle, have that engineer also speak to him! Everything that puts the situation in your favor.
Well, the dealer tech, manager, and foreman all drove my car and supposedly thought it was fine. Frankly, this is mind boggling to me. They must be completely numb to anything but the worst of problems if they didn't feel the rough cold shifts. The rough "scratch" that I feel is like grinding gears is even audible at times. The only thing the dealership foreman admit is that not being able to engage 1st at a stop is not normal, but he didn't experience it himself. It doesn't happen often. Few times in a week perhaps.
I will indeed be sure to request that the engineer drive the other car, if they still have it. The manual Corolla hatches aren't that common.
Something I'm going to try tomorrow — I will hold the clutch pedal on the floor and pause for a moment before shifting into 2nd. The clutch is hydraulically actuated, right? Maybe the brake/clutch fluid isn't reacting fast enough? Not sure...
Originally Posted by pleopard
Well, the dealership has a Toyota engineer on site Tuesday next week. They've asked me to drop off the car Monday afternoon. The engineer will test drive the car the following morning. Finally, some action! If the Toyota engineer states everything is normal, I will be very unimpressed.
.
Please make sure to ask that factory engineer drive that loaner car you drove in the same conditions as well! He needs a reference that can drive the issue home and make it clear as you mentioned even a dealer tech acknowledged the situation with your vehicle, have that engineer also speak to him! Everything that puts the situation in your favor.
Well, the dealer tech, manager, and foreman all drove my car and supposedly thought it was fine. Frankly, this is mind boggling to me. They must be completely numb to anything but the worst of problems if they didn't feel the rough cold shifts. The rough "scratch" that I feel is like grinding gears is even audible at times. The only thing the dealership foreman admit is that not being able to engage 1st at a stop is not normal, but he didn't experience it himself. It doesn't happen often. Few times in a week perhaps.
I will indeed be sure to request that the engineer drive the other car, if they still have it. The manual Corolla hatches aren't that common.
Something I'm going to try tomorrow — I will hold the clutch pedal on the floor and pause for a moment before shifting into 2nd. The clutch is hydraulically actuated, right? Maybe the brake/clutch fluid isn't reacting fast enough? Not sure...
Last edited:
Well, it is possible that the clutch delay valve may play a role... Now I'm not 100% sure how that works, but I would surmise the CDV has a non-return valve in parallel with it... so that you can push-in the clutch as quick as you like, but your attempt to let out the clutch abruptly slams the non-return valve (AKA "check-valve") shut and then the clutch fluid goes thru the orifice that is the CDV, at a certain max rate. If I have this logic correct, then the CDV prevents you from smacking it into higher gears as you accelerate.
If I have this right, then it is NOT the CDV that is screwing things up.
Instead, if the clutch is not totally disengaging when the pedal is on the floorboard (i.e., really, at its pedal-down limit-stop), then the engine is continuing to influence what's happening inside the transaxle... until it truly spins-down. And so, a bit of a delay in shifting gears to allow this spin-down to occur might mitigate the gravelly feeling. If this theory is correct, the gravelly feeling is 'cuz the synchronizers are not strong enough to control both transaxle shafts/gears - AND engine. No synchronizer is designed for that. That is why full disengagement is necessary to have long synchro life.
So, interesting theory... Give it a try and see if it bears-out.
If I have this right, then it is NOT the CDV that is screwing things up.
Instead, if the clutch is not totally disengaging when the pedal is on the floorboard (i.e., really, at its pedal-down limit-stop), then the engine is continuing to influence what's happening inside the transaxle... until it truly spins-down. And so, a bit of a delay in shifting gears to allow this spin-down to occur might mitigate the gravelly feeling. If this theory is correct, the gravelly feeling is 'cuz the synchronizers are not strong enough to control both transaxle shafts/gears - AND engine. No synchronizer is designed for that. That is why full disengagement is necessary to have long synchro life.
So, interesting theory... Give it a try and see if it bears-out.
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Well, it is possible that the clutch delay valve may play a role... Now I'm not 100% sure how that works, but I would surmise the CDV has a non-return valve in parallel with it... so that you can push-in the clutch as quick as you like, but your attempt to let out the clutch abruptly slams the non-return valve (AKA "check-valve") shut and then the clutch fluid goes thru the orifice that is the CDV, at a certain max rate. If I have this logic correct, then the CDV prevents you from smacking it into higher gears as you accelerate.
If I have this right, then it is NOT the CDV that is screwing things up.
Instead, if the clutch is not totally disengaging when the pedal is on the floorboard (i.e., really, at its pedal-down limit-stop), then the engine is continuing to influence what's happening inside the transaxle... until it truly spins-down. And so, a bit of a delay in shifting gears to allow this spin-down to occur might mitigate the gravelly feeling. If this theory is correct, the gravelly feeling is 'cuz the synchronizers are not strong enough to control both transaxle shafts/gears - AND engine. No synchronizer is designed for that. That is why full disengagement is necessary to have long synchro life.
So, interesting theory... Give it a try and see if it bears-out.
You, sir, have a lot of knowledge in these matters. Impressive. To date this makes the most sense to me. I wonder how temperature could influence disengagement.
If this is in fact the issue and if I've been prematurely wearing the synchros because of this and due to the dealerships inability to address the issue after 4 visits, I'll expect some form of extended warranty on the transmission.
I'll experiment a bit in the morning with the clutch on the floor pause. I suppose others might double clutch instead..
It pains me that the cold shifts are so gravelly (good way of putting it). I always try to take excellent care of my cars, and it's troubling to know I could be wrecking synchros. Or, shall we say, the car may be wrecking them... I'm honestly just tired of it. I bought a Toyota to avoid reliability problems. Literally everyone I know with Toyotas have had zero issues.
Well, it is possible that the clutch delay valve may play a role... Now I'm not 100% sure how that works, but I would surmise the CDV has a non-return valve in parallel with it... so that you can push-in the clutch as quick as you like, but your attempt to let out the clutch abruptly slams the non-return valve (AKA "check-valve") shut and then the clutch fluid goes thru the orifice that is the CDV, at a certain max rate. If I have this logic correct, then the CDV prevents you from smacking it into higher gears as you accelerate.
If I have this right, then it is NOT the CDV that is screwing things up.
Instead, if the clutch is not totally disengaging when the pedal is on the floorboard (i.e., really, at its pedal-down limit-stop), then the engine is continuing to influence what's happening inside the transaxle... until it truly spins-down. And so, a bit of a delay in shifting gears to allow this spin-down to occur might mitigate the gravelly feeling. If this theory is correct, the gravelly feeling is 'cuz the synchronizers are not strong enough to control both transaxle shafts/gears - AND engine. No synchronizer is designed for that. That is why full disengagement is necessary to have long synchro life.
So, interesting theory... Give it a try and see if it bears-out.
You, sir, have a lot of knowledge in these matters. Impressive. To date this makes the most sense to me. I wonder how temperature could influence disengagement.
If this is in fact the issue and if I've been prematurely wearing the synchros because of this and due to the dealerships inability to address the issue after 4 visits, I'll expect some form of extended warranty on the transmission.
I'll experiment a bit in the morning with the clutch on the floor pause. I suppose others might double clutch instead..
It pains me that the cold shifts are so gravelly (good way of putting it). I always try to take excellent care of my cars, and it's troubling to know I could be wrecking synchros. Or, shall we say, the car may be wrecking them... I'm honestly just tired of it. I bought a Toyota to avoid reliability problems. Literally everyone I know with Toyotas have had zero issues.
Trouble is that Toyota really does good automatic transmissions (rather Aisin Warner does) - but their manual transmissions are more typically used in their work-a-day vehicles (if I could put it that way, haha) - i.e. their trucks. And the truck market OUTSIDE of North America. Generally, then, they sell in hotter climates.... South America, Asia. So maybe the truck market is not as discerning. Having said that, truck, car - regardless - it'd bug the h*ll out of me
.
Honda, generally, does (or DID) good manual transaxles... and their automatics are 'kinda different and not usually as reliable as Aisin Warner units.
Getrag does smooth boxes, manuals. VW does, too (Borg Warner? ZF?).
Going back to Il_Signore97 - I learned some from his post about the lower-of-the-extremes viscosities (within the SAE band) - that he says predominates with the typical German vehicle. I will have to try that in my own car.
Honda, generally, does (or DID) good manual transaxles... and their automatics are 'kinda different and not usually as reliable as Aisin Warner units.
Getrag does smooth boxes, manuals. VW does, too (Borg Warner? ZF?).
Going back to Il_Signore97 - I learned some from his post about the lower-of-the-extremes viscosities (within the SAE band) - that he says predominates with the typical German vehicle. I will have to try that in my own car.
Well, I still find it hard to believe my vehicle shouldn't shift into 1st from time to time at a stop - have to say it hasn't don't it in quite a while now though..
I also find it hard to believe it should be so different from the other car I drove. Can't believe I now wish I had the CVT, but I do.
It was quite warm this morning. 3 degrees C, 0C overnight and it didn't shift that bad. I had one gravelly shift and it was one of the faster ones as I had traffic coming up behind me. So, the warmer it gets the less pronounced the problem is. Hopefully it's cold enough on Tuesday.
I also find it hard to believe it should be so different from the other car I drove. Can't believe I now wish I had the CVT, but I do.
It was quite warm this morning. 3 degrees C, 0C overnight and it didn't shift that bad. I had one gravelly shift and it was one of the faster ones as I had traffic coming up behind me. So, the warmer it gets the less pronounced the problem is. Hopefully it's cold enough on Tuesday.
Jacks Transmissions in Colorado have some interesting tech articles with merit:
https://www.jackstransmissions.com/blogs/pages/clutch-drag-kills-synchros
https://www.jackstransmissions.com/blogs/pages/clutch-drag-kills-synchros
I picked up the car after leaving at the dealer for two nights. Supposedly the chief engineer, Hans, looked at the car. They say he did some quick checks and a test drive, but I haven't received a report. Supposedly they're going to prepare something for me tomorrow. Honestly feel like I'm being jerked around. I've now had the car in four times and still no resolution. In fact, to date I have received zero technical feedback. It's a complete waste of my time.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by pleopard
I picked up the car after leaving at the dealer for two nights. Supposedly the chief engineer, Hans, looked at the car. They say he did some quick checks and a test drive, but I haven't received a report. Supposedly they're going to prepare something for me tomorrow. Honestly feel like I'm being jerked around. I've now had the car in four times and still no resolution. In fact, to date I have received zero technical feedback. It's a complete waste of my time.
Perhaps not, but I would suggest when the engineer comes back you tell them what you want to do, tell them you would like to exchange your problem vehicle for another identical car on the lot and pay for the usage of the current vehicle. The very least you should even consider accepting is a big extended warranty because it seems that this issue will end up causing early failure of drive train or shifter components. I'd specify that the extended warranty (should cover 10 years /120k miles) must cover all transmission and shifting related components like shift fork, lever, hydraulics, ect. Settle for nothing less and make sure it is in clear writing from Toyota Motor Canada. However I would really want the car replaced.
Sorry for your frustration on this, it really shouldn't be this way.
I picked up the car after leaving at the dealer for two nights. Supposedly the chief engineer, Hans, looked at the car. They say he did some quick checks and a test drive, but I haven't received a report. Supposedly they're going to prepare something for me tomorrow. Honestly feel like I'm being jerked around. I've now had the car in four times and still no resolution. In fact, to date I have received zero technical feedback. It's a complete waste of my time.
Perhaps not, but I would suggest when the engineer comes back you tell them what you want to do, tell them you would like to exchange your problem vehicle for another identical car on the lot and pay for the usage of the current vehicle. The very least you should even consider accepting is a big extended warranty because it seems that this issue will end up causing early failure of drive train or shifter components. I'd specify that the extended warranty (should cover 10 years /120k miles) must cover all transmission and shifting related components like shift fork, lever, hydraulics, ect. Settle for nothing less and make sure it is in clear writing from Toyota Motor Canada. However I would really want the car replaced.
Sorry for your frustration on this, it really shouldn't be this way.
