2019 Corolla hatchback manual transmission gear oil

Originally Posted by pleopard
The trade-off between protection and shift quality is an interesting one indeed and something I suspect may be a factor in this case. I guess we'll see - might take 5-10 years of otherwise trouble-free operation before I can conclude that. :-). Now, if I do end up putting RL MT-LV in and the transmission fails after a few years, I'll never know for sure if I should blame Toyota or RL. Haha. Seriously, all I can do now is laugh. Frustrating. It's not clear if it's an AW transmission. Toyota says it's their all-new design, but Toyota is so tightly linked to AW that it's likely AW.
After reading your entire thread, other than the dealer screw up -- which can take a few fluid changes to correct, don't ask me how I know that wink -- it seems that really what you need is a fluid with better cold viscometrics than what came with your car. I've been driving manual transmission vehicles for my entire life, and living in Canada (albeit not regularly as cold as where you are), I've had cold shifting issues with almost every car I've owned except my current Benz C300 (which shifts beautifully in extreme cold, almost unbelievable really). I've also driven many VW's which seem to shift well in cold temps also. And the main difference I can see across the German brands rather than everything else is the use of very high quality and very THIN gear oil for the transmission. Also, they tend to use fluids with the most stable viscometrics, in other words, fully synthetic fluids with great basestocks that don't thicken up as much as the temp really falls. So what I would try and what I've had luck with in the past with my previous vehicles is to select the best synthetic fluid you can find and start trying them one by one until you find one that you like. Obviously you can't make up for shortcomings in the transmission design, but you can try to make it as good as it can be with the best fluid for the application and weather conditions. Redline MT-LV looks to be a great choice. Castrol also has some fully synthetic 75W manual transmission fluids that are available in Europe (I'm sure for a price you can have them shipped over). By memory they are Castrol Syntrans FE 75W, and Castrol Syntrans B 75W. You should look for the lowest Brookfield viscosity numbers for extreme cold performance, as well as lowest 40 C KV numbers. And don't worry about transmission failure, you will not cause any damage to your transmission. After all, it was already shipped with 75W fluid in it, so technically you're replacing it with another fluid of the same viscosity grade anyway (perhaps just thinner within the grade). Also, anecdotally, I can tell you that in previous transmissions that specified thicker fluid, I've used low viscosity fluids with great success and for hundreds of thousands of km's without issue or failure of any kind. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
 
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Originally Posted by il_signore97
Originally Posted by pleopard
The trade-off between protection and shift quality is an interesting one indeed and something I suspect may be a factor in this case. I guess we'll see - might take 5-10 years of otherwise trouble-free operation before I can conclude that. :-). Now, if I do end up putting RL MT-LV in and the transmission fails after a few years, I'll never know for sure if I should blame Toyota or RL. Haha. Seriously, all I can do now is laugh. Frustrating. It's not clear if it's an AW transmission. Toyota says it's their all-new design, but Toyota is so tightly linked to AW that it's likely AW.
After reading your entire thread, other than the dealer screw up -- which can take a few fluid changes to correct, don't ask me how I know that wink -- it seems that really what you need is a fluid with better cold viscometrics than what came with your car. I've been driving manual transmission vehicles for my entire life, and living in Canada (albeit not regularly as cold as where you are), I've had cold shifting issues with almost every car I've owned except my current Benz C300 (which shifts beautifully in extreme cold, almost unbelievable really). I've also driven many VW's which seem to shift well in cold temps also. And the main difference I can see across the German brands rather than everything else is the use of very high quality and very THIN gear oil for the transmission. Also, they tend to use fluids with the most stable viscometrics, in other words, fully synthetic fluids with great basestocks that don't thicken up as much as the temp really falls. So what I would try and what I've had luck with in the past with my previous vehicles is to select the best synthetic fluid you can find and start trying them one by one until you find one that you like. Obviously you can't make up for shortcomings in the transmission design, but you can try to make it as good as it can be with the best fluid for the application and weather conditions. Redline MT-LV looks to be a great choice. Castrol also has some fully synthetic 75W manual transmission fluids that are available in Europe (I'm sure for a price you can have them shipped over). By memory they are Castrol Syntrans FE 75W, and Castrol Syntrans B 75W. You should look for the lowest Brookfield viscosity numbers for extreme cold performance, as well as lowest 40 C KV numbers. And don't worry about transmission failure, you will not cause any damage to your transmission. After all, it was already shipped with 75W fluid in it, so technically you're replacing it with another fluid of the same viscosity grade anyway (perhaps just thinner within the grade). Also, anecdotally, I can tell you that in previous transmissions that specified thicker fluid, I've used low viscosity fluids with great success and for hundreds of thousands of km's without issue or failure of any kind. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Very well-put; and with, it is obvious, first-hand experience to back it up. And I hasten to reinforce your point that within a given SAE rating, there is a RANGE of viscosities that meet that SAE rating.... so searching for the lower or lowest viscosity in the grouping that still meets the SAE rating would be smart. Also, great comments about the high quality base-stock, stable viscosity at low temps. And, re the search for the range of products within the SAE viscosity grouping, see MolaKule's white paper, link above (I believe), for the listing of products.
 
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Originally Posted by mv6845
I have a 2019 Corolla XSE 6M and I haven't experienced any harshness or rough shifts in the cold in nearly 9K miles. Coldest my car has seen was 15°F which is cold but not brutal. It sounds like you could have a mechanical issue. I leave the iMT on 24/7 and the car shifts, rev-matches and drives very well. My last 5 cars have been manual transmissions and the 2019 XSE feels just as smooth if not smoother than my 2002 Celica, 2015 Fiesta ST, and 2017 Focus RS. I would find another dealership or go back and have Toyota remove the Mobil fluid and replace it with the original Toyota fluid at no cost. Sounds like the dealership wanted to get you out of their hair and did a fluid dump and fill to document something. The fluid they installed isn't to Toyotas spec and you shouldn't be changing it out of your pocket. You've got a warranty and it's possible something isn't mechanically sounds.
It's pretty clear that the OP has a problem vehicle and the dealership was trying to weasel out of actually remedying it by changing the gear oil. I don't know why he hasn't contacted Toyota Canada and opened up a ticket on this. It's way past due for that. The faster he gets this documented at corporate the more likely the problem will be solved, or at least they will extend his warranty.
 
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Originally Posted by il_signore97
Originally Posted by pleopard
The trade-off between protection and shift quality is an interesting one indeed and something I suspect may be a factor in this case. I guess we'll see - might take 5-10 years of otherwise trouble-free operation before I can conclude that. :-). Now, if I do end up putting RL MT-LV in and the transmission fails after a few years, I'll never know for sure if I should blame Toyota or RL. Haha. Seriously, all I can do now is laugh. Frustrating. It's not clear if it's an AW transmission. Toyota says it's their all-new design, but Toyota is so tightly linked to AW that it's likely AW.
After reading your entire thread, other than the dealer screw up -- which can take a few fluid changes to correct, don't ask me how I know that wink -- it seems that really what you need is a fluid with better cold viscometrics than what came with your car. I've been driving manual transmission vehicles for my entire life, and living in Canada (albeit not regularly as cold as where you are), I've had cold shifting issues with almost every car I've owned except my current Benz C300 (which shifts beautifully in extreme cold, almost unbelievable really). I've also driven many VW's which seem to shift well in cold temps also. And the main difference I can see across the German brands rather than everything else is the use of very high quality and very THIN gear oil for the transmission. Also, they tend to use fluids with the most stable viscometrics, in other words, fully synthetic fluids with great basestocks that don't thicken up as much as the temp really falls. So what I would try and what I've had luck with in the past with my previous vehicles is to select the best synthetic fluid you can find and start trying them one by one until you find one that you like. Obviously you can't make up for shortcomings in the transmission design, but you can try to make it as good as it can be with the best fluid for the application and weather conditions. Redline MT-LV looks to be a great choice. Castrol also has some fully synthetic 75W manual transmission fluids that are available in Europe (I'm sure for a price you can have them shipped over). By memory they are Castrol Syntrans FE 75W, and Castrol Syntrans B 75W. You should look for the lowest Brookfield viscosity numbers for extreme cold performance, as well as lowest 40 C KV numbers. And don't worry about transmission failure, you will not cause any damage to your transmission. After all, it was already shipped with 75W fluid in it, so technically you're replacing it with another fluid of the same viscosity grade anyway (perhaps just thinner within the grade). Also, anecdotally, I can tell you that in previous transmissions that specified thicker fluid, I've used low viscosity fluids with great success and for hundreds of thousands of km's without issue or failure of any kind. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Spot on evaluation/assessment .
 
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
It's pretty clear that the OP has a problem vehicle and the dealership was trying to weasel out of actually remedying it by changing the gear oil.
IMHO, there is nothing mechanically wrong with OP's transmission, yet . Transmission shift smoothness/roughness vs changing fluid behavious is one issue most oil companies are yet to fully resolve till todate . Edit:As a consumer, whenever in such a tight spot, the best and workable solution is to select another after market gear fluid with the lowest possible Brookfield Viscosity . One may have to ignore any 'famous' fluid providing no data on BV.
 
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Originally Posted by zeng
Originally Posted by AC1DD
It's pretty clear that the OP has a problem vehicle and the dealership was trying to weasel out of actually remedying it by changing the gear oil.
IMHO, there is nothing mechanically wrong with OP's transmission, yet . Transmission shift smoothness/roughness vs changing fluid behavious is one issue most oil companies are yet to fully resolve till todate . Edit:As a consumer, whenever in such a tight spot, the best and workable solution is to select another after market gear fluid with the lowest possible Brookfield Viscosity . One may have to ignore any 'famous' fluid providing no data on BV.
I have a basic question, Zeng (or Others) - and please direct me somewhere where I can find the answer: In looking for an ideal manual transmission lubricant, and staying generally with the Mfr's recommended SAE viscosity, it seems you would want as low as kinematic viscosity at 100 degrees C as possible. That's great... and within a given SAE "weight" there is a range of Kinematic Viscosities (in centi Stokes). There is also a kinematic viscosity at 40 degrees C. I would assume you want that to be as low as possible, too, within the SAE (cold temp) range? What about the degree to which the viscosity changes between these two temp points? Is the Viscosity Index number supposed to be small, meaning there is NOT a significant change in viscosity between these two temps? Is that what you want... a low VI number? Another item... (sorry, I guess this is NOT a single question): what is Brookfield Viscosity Index? It is NOT kinematic viscosity... it is NOT in cS's. Does it refer to the test of an oil draining through an orifice, at a controlled temp? What are the units? Do you want a small number? "Slipperiness". Some oils claim to be LESS slippery... to the benefit of the synchromesh action. Is there a measure for that? Final points... and here, that "famous" oil vendor claims that they are special: viscosity changes with relative motion... and the stick-slip phenomenon... and how it relates to shift-feel???? Can someone expound on that? Please and Thanks!
 
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by mv6845
I have a 2019 Corolla XSE 6M and I haven't experienced any harshness or rough shifts in the cold in nearly 9K miles. Coldest my car has seen was 15°F which is cold but not brutal. It sounds like you could have a mechanical issue. I leave the iMT on 24/7 and the car shifts, rev-matches and drives very well. My last 5 cars have been manual transmissions and the 2019 XSE feels just as smooth if not smoother than my 2002 Celica, 2015 Fiesta ST, and 2017 Focus RS. I would find another dealership or go back and have Toyota remove the Mobil fluid and replace it with the original Toyota fluid at no cost. Sounds like the dealership wanted to get you out of their hair and did a fluid dump and fill to document something. The fluid they installed isn't to Toyotas spec and you shouldn't be changing it out of your pocket. You've got a warranty and it's possible something isn't mechanically sounds.
It's pretty clear that the OP has a problem vehicle and the dealership was trying to weasel out of actually remedying it by changing the gear oil. I don't know why he hasn't contacted Toyota Canada and opened up a ticket on this. It's way past due for that. The faster he gets this documented at corporate the more likely the problem will be solved, or at least they will extend his warranty.
The OP does not necessarily have a problem vehicle. Unless you have driven the same car in Calgary, AB in the dead of their very very cold winters, you wouldn't be able to make that determination. Plus, the OP did mention that he drove another Corolla on the lot and it too was crunchy (although subjectively he said it may have been slightly better, but keep in mind that his now had an incorrect GL-5 fluid put in there which will take time and more fluid changes to get rid of).
 
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
In looking for an ideal manual transmission lubricant, and staying generally with the Mfr's recommended SAE viscosity, it seems you would want as low as kinematic viscosity at 100 degrees C as possible. That's great... and within a given SAE "weight" there is a range of Kinematic Viscosities (in centi Stokes). There is also a kinematic viscosity at 40 degrees C. I would assume you want that to be as low as possible, too, within the SAE (cold temp) range? What about the degree to which the viscosity changes between these two temp points? Is the Viscosity Index number supposed to be small, meaning there is NOT a significant change in viscosity between these two temps? Is that what you want... a low VI number? Another item... (sorry, I guess this is NOT a single question): what is Brookfield Viscosity Index? It is NOT kinematic viscosity... it is NOT in cS's. Does it refer to the test of an oil draining through an orifice, at a controlled temp? What are the units? Do you want a small number?
To answer some of your questions (I'm on my phone so forgive any typos), here is the SAE grading system for gear oils: [Linked Image] As you can see, all they specify is a min and max range for kinematic viscosity at 100 C for the non-W grades, and a min kinematic viscosity plus a min temperature that must be achieved before dynamic (Brookfield) viscosity rises above 150,000 cP for the W grades. Also, W grades can be combined with non-W grades and those resulting multi grades must meet both requirements. So those are the ranges. But when looking at the W grades, the dynamic viscosity requirement is not very stringent. For example, a 75W must reach -40 C before it's dynamic viscosity exceeds 150,000 cP. But a high quality synthetic fluid would have a dynamic viscosity of much much less at the same temp. Here is Pentosin MTF2 75W80 for example: [Linked Image] The dynamic viscosity at -40 C is only 7600 cP! What further complicates things is that no manual transmission operates at 100C. So using a viscosity grading system that focuses on viscosity at 100 C makes little sense in this application. That's why adhering to manufacturer recommendations is not always necessary to provide good protection and good shift quality. You'll find that the kinematic viscosity at 40C varies dramatically between gear oils of the exact same grades for that reason. High quality synthetic fluids of a particular grade will have the same or similar kinematic viscosity at 100C as equivalent conventional lubricants, but they will very likely have lower viscosities at 40C and much lower Brookfield viscosities. Lastly manual transmission fluid should be selected for the operating climate. The same car in Arizona would likely have much higher gearbox temps than one in Alaska would. If a particular fluid didn't t shift well when cold, you can always try looking for one with a lower 40 C viscosity and lower Brookfield viscosity.
 
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Originally Posted by il_signore97
The OP does not necessarily have a problem vehicle. Unless you have driven the same car in Calgary, AB in the dead of their very very cold winters, you wouldn't be able to make that determination. Plus, the OP did mention that he drove another Corolla on the lot and it too was crunchy (although subjectively he said it may have been slightly better, but keep in mind that his now had an incorrect GL-5 fluid put in there which will take time and more fluid changes to get rid of).
The OP even told us that he drove an identical car as a loaner and he said that shifted without the crunching he has in his own car. Another poster mentioned that on 15F days the transmission shifts smoothly into and out of gears. There clearly IS a mechanical problem.
 
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Originally Posted by zeng
IMHO, there is nothing mechanically wrong with OP's transmission, yet .
But his trans was shifting with crunching with the original synthetic Toyota 75w oil in it. He then drove a identical car as his own as a loaner and he stated that this car shifted without the roughness that his own does. It's pretty clear that his car has some kind of mechanic issue. It could be as simple as an adjustment, or more serious but something isn't correct.
 
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Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by zeng
IMHO, there is nothing mechanically wrong with OP's transmission, yet .
But his trans was shifting with crunching with the original synthetic Toyota 75w oil in it. He then drove a identical car as his own as a loaner and he stated that this car shifted without the roughness that his own does. It's pretty clear that his car has some kind of mechanic issue. It could be as simple as an adjustment, or more serious but something isn't correct.
All mechanics, it seems to me, judge whether the synchromesh on any given gear in a manual transmission is "knackered" when the car is at full operating temp. He said that it does NOT feel gravelly at full operating temp. He also said that the other car he tried, brand new off the lot (presumably), was not totally smooth - but was smoother than his 9000 km (5600 mi.) - going by memory, here - old Corolla. I know that that is not old... and I also know that some synchromesh set-ups loosen up / improve with age - but the salient point here is that his model of Corolla, any of 'em, is NOT totally smooth, first to second, or third to second... when cold. I know there are variances between cars... and my point has been that this is all a matter of degree of roughness. I really, really believe Toyota Canada would NOT tear appart the OP's gearbox when it is totally smooth at full operating temp... They would say that the performance of that box is within the band of statistical variances between totally functioning units. I really believe that Il_Signore97's post, speaking to the high quality synthetics that are low in 40 degree C viscosity (permissibly low within the boundaries of the SAE viscosity designation) and that have low Dynamic viscosity - evident in many German cars - is the key to this whole matter.
 
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Originally Posted by il_signore97
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
In looking for an ideal manual transmission lubricant, and staying generally with the Mfr's recommended SAE viscosity, it seems you would want as low as kinematic viscosity at 100 degrees C as possible. That's great... and within a given SAE "weight" there is a range of Kinematic Viscosities (in centi Stokes). There is also a kinematic viscosity at 40 degrees C. I would assume you want that to be as low as possible, too, within the SAE (cold temp) range? What about the degree to which the viscosity changes between these two temp points? Is the Viscosity Index number supposed to be small, meaning there is NOT a significant change in viscosity between these two temps? Is that what you want... a low VI number? Another item... (sorry, I guess this is NOT a single question): what is Brookfield Viscosity Index? It is NOT kinematic viscosity... it is NOT in cS's. Does it refer to the test of an oil draining through an orifice, at a controlled temp? What are the units? Do you want a small number?
To answer some of your questions (I'm on my phone so forgive any typos), here is the SAE grading system for gear oils: [Linked Image] As you can see, all they specify is a min and max range for kinematic viscosity at 100 C for the non-W grades, and a min kinematic viscosity plus a min temperature that must be achieved before dynamic (Brookfield) viscosity rises above 150,000 cP for the W grades. Also, W grades can be combined with non-W grades and those resulting multi grades must meet both requirements. So those are the ranges. But when looking at the W grades, the dynamic viscosity requirement is not very stringent. For example, a 75W must reach -40 C before it's dynamic viscosity exceeds 150,000 cP. But a high quality synthetic fluid would have a dynamic viscosity of much much less at the same temp. Here is Pentosin MTF2 75W80 for example: [Linked Image] The dynamic viscosity at -40 C is only 7600 cP! What further complicates things is that no manual transmission operates at 100C. So using a viscosity grading system that focuses on viscosity at 100 C makes little sense in this application. That's why adhering to manufacturer recommendations is not always necessary to provide good protection and good shift quality. You'll find that the kinematic viscosity at 40C varies dramatically between gear oils of the exact same grades for that reason. High quality synthetic fluids of a particular grade will have the same or similar kinematic viscosity at 100C as equivalent conventional lubricants, but they will very likely have lower viscosities at 40C and much lower Brookfield viscosities. Lastly manual transmission fluid should be selected for the operating climate. The same car in Arizona would likely have much higher gearbox temps than one in Alaska would. If a particular fluid didn't t shift well when cold, you can always try looking for one with a lower 40 C viscosity and lower Brookfield viscosity.
A lot of good and instructive information there. I am beginning to understand this. I would ask for comments, though, about the relative "slipperiness" of the transaxle/transmission lubricant... the point made in the 2002 dated Redline pdf, above? Also, what about the variances in coefficient of friction that depend on relative speeds of surfaces (and Redline's comments about the downwards inflection of the coefficient of friction). Again, I refer folks to the document, several posts earlier (put forward by me, Cdn17Sport6MT). Please and thanks!
 
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pleopard

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Wow, this thread exploded in the last couple days. Okay, here's an update. I now have over 500km since the change _back_ to the Toyota LV 75W GL-4 fluid, made in Japan if anyone cares. The problem persists. As some correctly noted, I drove another identical and brand new car on the Toyota dealer lot in very cold weather and right after the first cold start of the day - no issues. Notchy, but smooth and as I'd expect a car to shift. As a reminder, I really have two issues - Intermittent roughness (yes, sometimes the roughness going from 1st to 2nd is smooth, even when cold) and intermittent inability to shift into 1st from a complete stop at any temperature. The latter problem only happens every couple days or so and I solve it by engaging second or third or rolling the car an couple inches. Even the shop foreman admitted that's not normal, yet he conveniently isn't addressing it. As of today, I sent a message to Toyota Canada. I will follow up in a couple days with them if I don't hear back. I respect that manuals may be temperamental, particularly when cold, but the fact of the matter is that this car is barely 7 months old with under 11,000km (6,800 miles) and it shifts very poorly when another identical car shifted normally. I can't accept that. Perhaps the more concerning problem is the shifting into 1st from a stop. At one point I was in neutral waiting in an intersection at a red light. Light turned green. Surprise! Wouldn't engage 1st. The guy behind me was honking at me as I fiddled with it. I proposed that the dealer try Redline MT-LV 70W/75W, but they refused. At any rate, doesn't matter - I no longer believe this is fluid related. Fluid may certainly be a factor, as the roughness mostly goes away when the car is warm (mostly) but I don't believe it's the primary one in this case.
 

pleopard

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The car may be within the band of statistical variance between all units; as Cdn17Sport noted; however, there's the shifting into 1st gear from idle issue too. Also, if the rough shifting from 1st to 2nd when cold is normal per the cars within the band of Toyota's tolerable normality, well, then I just don't accept that. The roughness is harsh and intermittent and a car sold in 2019 in my opinion shouldn't behave that way.
 
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Originally Posted by pleopard
The car may be within the band of statistical variance between all units; as Cdn17Sport noted; however, there's the shifting into 1st gear from idle issue too. Also, if the rough shifting from 1st to 2nd when cold is normal per the cars within the band of Toyota's tolerable normality, well, then I just don't accept that. The roughness is harsh and intermittent and a car sold in 2019 in my opinion shouldn't behave that way.
Strange thing here is that both first gear and second gear synchro's are involved. They are separate synchro's. The only three things that I can think of that'd cause those coincident prbs are: fluid; clutch (inadequate) release; or shift linkage?
 

pleopard

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Cdn17Sport, you're probably right, but dealership techs these days won't spend any time or money on an in-warranty car unless the problem hits them right in the face. That's why I've now gotten corporate involved.
 
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Originally Posted by pleopard
Cdn17Sport, you're probably right, but dealership techs these days won't spend any time or money on an in-warranty car unless the problem hits them right in the face. That's why I've now gotten corporate involved.
Glad to hear you have decided to open up a formal case with Toyota Canada, this car you have is clearly not operating correctly, and these claims that your vehicle is within tolerances for acceptable performance is nonsense. I'm my view they either need to replace the transmission, or whatever other parts are necessary to make these problems go away or buy back the car, or exchange it for a identical model. I'd ask Toyota Canada to exchange your problem vehicle for an identical one readily available on the lot of a dealership. Hopefully the mfr has a district service rep that might be of help along with a factory engineer. Best of luck to you friend. I would be very frustrated and disappointed considering it is a Toyota.
 
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