2018 3.5 Eco boost cold engine rpm acceleration/deceleration rattle and viscosit

[noclutch]

Thought I'd bring this over here for some more oil-oriented discussion, though I'm hardly knowledgeable enough about the mechanics of Fords VCT and their cam phaser design, nor oil viscosity and how that may affect things like VTC feed pressure etc etc. So yea, I'm just being a knowledge sponge here LOL My experience- I purchased the 2018 EB 3.5 2k demo truck with one oil change already done by the dealer at around 1.7-2 k miles. I'd never noticed the cam phaser noise* (presumably per the F150 forums and pertaining to the Gen 2 engine '15-19, though it is hottly debated just what the heck is causing the noise !) until I changed the oil at 7k miles. Went from whatever they had in it, presumably Motorcraft semisyn 5w-30, to PUP 5w-30. Very shortly thereafter I noticed cold engine clatter of indexing phasers, or whatever. After reading here about LSPI preventive formulations, SN+ and calcium levels (and those of 2018 bottled PUP) and the new B1 spec by Ford, within a few hundred miles I decided to dump the PUP and change to RGT 5w-30. With that change I noticed a pronounced decrease in rattle intensity, though still there and reproducible under the right cold engine conditions. But definitely better than with PUP. And it always goes away within say 5-10 minutes of starting and never happens warm or hot. Worse on easy low gear acceleration, but present on deceleration as well. If interested, here's the biggest thread about this noise, though there are several going right now. https://www.f150forum.com/f118/17-3-5-ecoboost-rattle-401441/ Shortly into the thread there is a video demonstrating the noise, though it seems to be variable in intensity from one truck to the next. Nothing has seemed to change much over the years, and if it's a design flaw, Ford isn't acknowledging it nor has a reliable fix when they somewhat do.... such as changing the cam phasers and timing chains and tensioners... WTH? Question to the BITOG group is, do any of you have insight into viscosity and how it plays into specifically the Ford CVT system? Is the cSt 40? ( darned near start up temps here in Florida ) difference between MC semi and PUP and RTG enough to affect VCT phaser performance? Word is, again on the F150 forum, it is a VCT and possibly it's cleaning cycle that is causing the noise. But why does it have to be noisy? And if I wanted to clean something, I'd get it warm first and not try to do it cold!! I've read how Hondas VVT for example may have issues with higher than spec weight oils, but my change from PUP to RGT seems to have helped, not hurt. Might I be looking to say a 10w-30 for example?? A rare F150 member said going to an 0w helped their noise fwiw, though my experience (going thicker) thus far is the opposite. Thoughts from those more in the know than I?? (and that's easy !) TIA

 

[kstanf150]

Originally Posted by noclutch

Thought I'd bring this over here for some more oil-oriented discussion, though I'm hardly knowledgeable enough about the mechanics of Fords VCT and their cam phaser design, nor oil viscosity and how that may affect things like VTC feed pressure etc etc. So yea, I'm just being a knowledge sponge here LOL My experience- I purchased the 2018 EB 3.5 2k demo truck with one oil change already done by the dealer at around 1.7-2 k miles. I'd never noticed the cam phaser noise* (presumably per the F150 forums and pertaining to the Gen 2 engine '15-19, though it is hottly debated just what the heck is causing the noise !) until I changed the oil at 7k miles. Went from whatever they had in it, presumably Motorcraft semisyn 5w-30, to PUP 5w-30. Very shortly thereafter I noticed cold engine clatter of indexing phasers, or whatever. After reading here about LSPI preventive formulations, SN+ and calcium levels (and those of 2018 bottled PUP) and the new B1 spec by Ford, within a few hundred miles I decided to dump the PUP and change to RGT 5w-30. With that change I noticed a pronounced decrease in rattle intensity, though still there and reproducible under the right cold engine conditions. But definitely better than with PUP. And it always goes away within say 5-10 minutes of starting and never happens warm or hot. Worse on easy low gear acceleration, but present on deceleration as well. If interested, here's the biggest thread about this noise, though there are several going right now. https://www.f150forum.com/f118/17-3-5-ecoboost-rattle-401441/ Shortly into the thread there is a video demonstrating the noise, though it seems to be variable in intensity from one truck to the next. Nothing has seemed to change much over the years, and if it's a design flaw, Ford isn't acknowledging it nor has a reliable fix when they somewhat do.... such as changing the cam phasers and timing chains and tensioners... WTH? Question to the BITOG group is, do any of you have insight into viscosity and how it plays into specifically the Ford CVT system? Is the cSt 40? ( darned near start up temps here in Florida ) difference between MC semi and PUP and RTG enough to affect VCT phaser performance? Word is, again on the F150 forum, it is a VCT and possibly it's cleaning cycle that is causing the noise. But why does it have to be noisy? And if I wanted to clean something, I'd get it warm first and not try to do it cold!! I've read how Hondas VVT for example may have issues with higher than spec weight oils, but my change from PUP to RGT seems to have helped, not hurt. Might I be looking to say a 10w-30 for example?? A rare F150 member said going to an 0w helped their noise fwiw, though my experience (going thicker) thus far is the opposite. Thoughts from those more in the know than I?? (and that's easy !) TIA

I owned a Gen 1 Ecoboost and ran QSUD 5W-30 for 120,000 miles with absolutely not one issue of any kind Use a good quality oil and you'll be fine with that motor Their well made !!!👍

 

[noclutch]

This video makes me question things. Not my truck, but the same noise, just less intense after the change from PUP to RTG. https://youtu.be/YAe8ORhjCiQ

 

[kstanf150]

Originally Posted by noclutch

This video makes me question things. Not my truck, but the same noise, just less intense after the change from PUP to RTG. https://youtu.be/YAe8ORhjCiQ

I have no idea what that noise is on the video My Ecoboost never made one unusual sound

 

[dave1251]

The 3.5 Ecoboosts are driven hard at work but continue to perform when called upon it's a very reliable engine you going to find people do not have a lot of experience dealing with problems.

 

[demarpaint]

If it is still under warranty I'd have the dealer check it out.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by demarpaint

If it is still under warranty I'd have the dealer check it out.

Good advice.

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by dave1251

Originally Posted by demarpaint

If it is still under warranty I'd have the dealer check it out.

Good advice.

^^^^^^^^ Yeah I agree...

 

[Cujet]

The best results tend to come from more viscous oils when operating in hot climates. Ford fixed a number of issues with the EB engines to make them more tolerant of abuse, but the key one was chain stretch on the earlier engines. This happens because the oil gets contaminated with combustion byproducts, most of which evaporate, but the carbon/soot and other nonvolatile gasoline additives remain suspended in the oil. A more viscous oil protects the chain and phasers better from heavy soot loads and fuel dilution under hot conditions.

The phasers will make some noise, that's just a fact. Whether you notice it or not is another story. Quietly drive alongside a concrete wall at 1100 RPM, windows down, and you can hear the Phaser noise in just about any modern Ford. Some of that is not the phaser so much as it is the drive pin. which is just loose enough to allow engagement and it will rattle, no matter what.

In any case, even a brief study of those with EB engines and phaser/chain/knock problems will bring up all the same old culprits. Long oil change intervals, poor oil choices, fuel dilution, heavy soot loads, and low real-world viscosity.

Furthermore, it's good to recognize that an oil's viscosity varies markedly over it's temperature range. To say that the phaser needs a certain viscosity is to say that a phaser won't work in cold weather, or when not fully warmed up. Or while towing an RV up a long grade. The cam phasers and systems are identical between various engines that have vastly different viscosity requirements. The Mustang with it's 5W-20 and -50 (trak-pack) come to mind.

I use 10W-30 M1 EP and Motorcraft filters here in South Florida, and change every 5000. No issues what so ever. I do notice that by 4000 miles, the oil smells of fuel and the idle is rougher.

There are a number of EB F150 guys that run 5W-40 T6 or Delvac 1 with great results. Not surprisingly these guys don't have noise or wear problems. Some of which are well North of 300,000 miles.

 

[mpack88]

On my 2018 "non" ecoboost. The only time I ever heard startup rattle was around 4.5k with factory oil and filter. My assumption was maybe the filter is getting plugged up from the breaking in period. I cut the factory filter open and no metal that I can see was there. Oil looked good aswell. I now have been using shell RGT 5w20 with Champion COS10575 filter. Car now gas 17857k and never heard it make that noise again. Dont the EcoBoost and "non"ecoboost use the same cam phasers? Noise don't seem to be a problem with the "non" EcoBoost versions. However EcoBoost use 5w30 vs 5w20 in the non EcoBoost. Not sure if the change in viscosity did that but anyone want to experiment with it. Early EcoBoost required 5w20 so a short interval shouldn't hurt. Could be a interesting experiment to see if noise goes away with thinner.

 

[edyvw]

First of all, EB 3.5 does not have LSPI issue. LSPI is present in small engine (like 1.6 turbo) and not all manufacturers have that issue.
Try heavy 5W30, "Euro" oils. You have in Wal Mart PUP Euro L 5W30 or Castrol Edge 5W30 A3/B4, if you want to stick with 5W30. Otherwise, get Castrol 0W40 or Mobil1 0W40.
Ford started EB with 5W20, but soon realized that they have to bump grade. Problem is for Ford (and owner) bumping grade too much is going to have real effect on MPG, so that is why they are probably sticking to ILSAC GF oils in EB. If you are out of warranty, go W40. If still under warranty, check with dealer, but IMO, stick with those heavier 5W30 oils.

 

[SDGolden]

My 2018 3.5 EcoBoost cam phasers failed at 14k miles, with oil changes every 4,500 - 5k. It got QSUD 5w-30 and/or Mobil 1 0w-30 (Mobil 1 was in at the time of failure). I don't think oil has anything to do with the phasers failing - it's a flawed design. Ford has had issues with cam phasers failing all the way back to the mid 2000's when they first went to variable valve timing on the f150s. The service writer gave me the run around on mine saying they dont have any issues with the new ecoboost motors and that I'm wrong (I politely informed him I'm not - I was an ASE master certified tech in my previous career so I knew what I was talking about), but the technician looked at the video for less than 5 seconds before he said "cam phasers, I've already done 3 sets on the 2018s". I asked if the warrantied phasers were the identical part # or if they'd been superseded to a revised part - they were the same. So I'm sure it's only a matter of time until they fail again.

I have several video clips of it rattling when they failed but can't get them to upload. Always when the engine was cold, lasted anywhere from 30 seconds to 5 minutes before going away.

 

[Greasymechtech]

If it worked when new, what stress caused the failure? flawed design? manufacturing defect? driving style? oil? filter? interval? undersized components? fuel dilution? parts manufactured Friday afternoon thinking about the weekend of drinking? parts manufactured Monday morning after a weekend of drinking? underpaid employees at parts supplier contractor?

US consumer can find the weak spot in any component. Just ask any soccer mom what she destroyed with her fleet of minivans and SUVs, or ask the short tripper city only driver...

My recommendations for engines with known issues, regardless of make/model/issue:
More frequent oil change intervals. I don't care about oil life monitors or fixed interval changes. Jippylube wasn't wrong with the 3k/3m recommendation, and is probably more right than ever now with non-stop engine problems coming from automakers. I think most drivers are more severe service interval than they want to believe. If you hear/smell/feel something, change it out and don't go that long again.
Thicker full synthetic oil... a grade or a few tenths in HTHS. You want MPG or a running engine?
Full synthetic oil filters changed at every interval.... flow/filter/hold better.
Magnetic drainplugs and filter magnets when possible. Maybe you'll spot something on the plug, or inside a cut open filter. Obviously not available for cartridges and some plastic plugs.
Older spec oils... abandon API/ILSAC and if weather permitting, wide SAE labels. I can use 10w30 or 15w40 year round around here, on almost any engine I want. Try the Redline 5w30. It has a high HTHS, and the z/p/moly/calcium slug. MPT, HPL, RoyalPurple HPS, and some BMW/VW spec oils... have the good stuff. And, don't forget Rotella T6 5w30 or Delvac Extreme 10w30, or synthetic 10w40 motorcycles oils.
And, full oil level always.... checked regularly. Makes no sense to do anything special if its a 1/2 gallon low on oil when pulling into the dealer quicklube lane.

Can't do much after a failure occurs other than replace the worn parts.