2018-19 Passat. Valvoline EU recommendations. 0W20 is nowhere

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Thank you.And yes, I know a 30 or 40 would work. But the requirement is VW508.00, whether you, I, or anyone else likes it or not.
 
Originally Posted by wemay
Thank you.And yes, I know a 30 or 40 would work. But the requirement is VW508.00, whether you, I, or anyone else likes it or not.


It depends on which engine you buy. There is the DKZA, 140 kW, which I believe is a Budack engine.

From a UK Passat owner's manual

Petrol engines with particulate filter

Flexible Service VW 508 00 or alternatively VW 504 00

Fixed Service VW 508 00 or alternatively VW 504 00

Petrol engines without particulate filter

Flexible Service VW 508 00 or alternatively VW 504 00

Fixed Service VW 502 00
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
Originally Posted by wemay
Thank you.And yes, I know a 30 or 40 would work. But the requirement is VW508.00, whether you, I, or anyone else likes it or not.


It depends on which engine you buy. There is the DKZA, 140 kW, which I believe is a Budack engine.

From a UK Passat owner's manual

Petrol engines with particulate filter

Flexible Service VW 508 00 or alternatively VW 504 00

Fixed Service VW 508 00 or alternatively VW 504 00

Petrol engines without particulate filter

Flexible Service VW 508 00 or alternatively VW 504 00

Fixed Service VW 502 00


Interesting... thanks. I wonder what would happen if you showed this to a service department denying warranty work based on using 502 or 504 instead of 508.
 
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

But, for Warranty and that pesky tracer dye that VAG specs....


Plausible indeed.



People really need to stop telling people to avoid this spec. In the US, this LOW-Sap oil has everything to do with the carbon/valve build-up and damage to the CATs. There are well documented several warranty claims on low mileage VW engines that called for 504/508/507 specs. Mainly triggering Engine lights due to the emissions system. Anyone look at the tailpipe of a low-saps VW cert oil on new engine requiring Low-saps After 8k miles??? You barely see any carbon build-up especially on 93octane. In fact that's why all VW dealerships are being forced to stoke the correct spec oils. Hence the switch to Mobile from Castro's and the dealers now stocking the right stuff. In Europe, the Low-Saps protects the Particulate filters.

My buddies 2.0T tripped an engine light after 20K. Checked the history, they were putting regular Castro's 5w-30 and dumped to much carbon in the system!

Só please stop giving bad advise on the VW spec..it is imperative. By the way, the green dye burns away after a few hundred miles...so it's not for warranty purposes
 
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Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06

Anyone look at the tailpipe of a low-saps VW cert oil on new engine requiring Low-saps After 8k miles??? You barely see any carbon build-up especially on 93octane. In fact that's why all VW dealerships are being forced to stoke the correct spec oils. Hence the switch to Mobile from Castro's and the dealers now stocking the right stuff.

I find your observation in bold interesting and plausible .
Appreciate if you could kindly further elaborate on difference in observing carbon build-up between low/mid SaPS C2/3 and high SaPS A3B4 .
Of course, pictures would help .
 
Originally Posted by zeng
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06

Anyone look at the tailpipe of a low-saps VW cert oil on new engine requiring Low-saps After 8k miles??? You barely see any carbon build-up especially on 93octane. In fact that's why all VW dealerships are being forced to stoke the correct spec oils. Hence the switch to Mobile from Castro's and the dealers now stocking the right stuff.

I find your observation in bold interesting and plausible .
Appreciate if you could kindly further elaborate on difference in observing carbon build-up between low/mid SaPS C2/3 and high SaPS A3B4 .
Of course, pictures would help .



It's well documented that ACEA Cx oils reduce the rate of carbon build up.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

But, for Warranty and that pesky tracer dye that VAG specs....


Plausible indeed.



People really need to stop telling people to avoid this spec. In the US, this LOW-Sap oil has everything to do with the carbon/valve build-up and damage to the CATs. There are well documented several warranty claims on low mileage VW engines that called for 504/508/507 specs. Mainly triggering Engine lights due to the emissions system. Anyone look at the tailpipe of a low-saps VW cert oil on new engine requiring Low-saps After 8k miles??? You barely see any carbon build-up especially on 93octane. In fact that's why all VW dealerships are being forced to stoke the correct spec oils. Hence the switch to Mobile from Castro's and the dealers now stocking the right stuff. In Europe, the Low-Saps protects the Particulate filters.

My buddies 2.0T tripped an engine light after 20K. Checked the history, they were putting regular Castro's 5w-30 and dumped to much carbon in the system!

Só please stop giving bad advise on the VW spec..it is imperative. By the way, the green dye burns away after a few hundred miles...so it's not for warranty purposes


Q: So what was repaired/replaced on your buddies 2.0T? The catalytic converter? US cars shouldn't have a GPF.
 
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite

There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

But, for Warranty and that pesky tracer dye that VAG specs....


Plausible indeed.



People really need to stop telling people to avoid this spec. In the US, this LOW-Sap oil has everything to do with the carbon/valve build-up and damage to the CATs. There are well documented several warranty claims on low mileage VW engines that called for 504/508/507 specs. Mainly triggering Engine lights due to the emissions system. Anyone look at the tailpipe of a low-saps VW cert oil on new engine requiring Low-saps After 8k miles??? You barely see any carbon build-up especially on 93octane. In fact that's why all VW dealerships are being forced to stoke the correct spec oils. Hence the switch to Mobile from Castro's and the dealers now stocking the right stuff. In Europe, the Low-Saps protects the Particulate filters.

My buddies 2.0T tripped an engine light after 20K. Checked the history, they were putting regular Castro's 5w-30 and dumped to much carbon in the system!

Só please stop giving bad advise on the VW spec..it is imperative. By the way, the green dye burns away after a few hundred miles...so it's not for warranty purposes

That specification is not anymore strict on SAPS then VW504.00/507.00.
Actually, if CBU is main concern as well as CAT pollution, then VW504.00/507.00 in combination with MB229.51 (SA limit less than 0.8%, P limit is 0.05-0.09%, Noack limit 10%) should be used.
Noack limit on VW504.00/507.00 is 13% (rarely any is so high) and SA limit is 1.0-1.5%, while P limit is 0.08-0.15%
In interest of warranty VW504.00/507.00 should be used. In interest of engine performance, MB229.51 should be used.
So, Mobil1 ESP 5W30 will do the trick.
 
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My evidence is anectodal, but I owned a Mk6 GTI for about 7.5 years, always used 502 oil. I proactively did a valve cleaning at 48k miles, it wasn't horrible but definitely there. The exhaust tips were always sooty. I now have an RS3 for two years and 17k miles or so, always used 504, and the exhaust is WAY cleaner. The RS3 also consumes a lot more oil than my GTI did and it is still much cleaner.
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
My evidence is anectodal, but I owned a Mk6 GTI for about 7.5 years, always used 502 oil. I proactively did a valve cleaning at 48k miles, it wasn't horrible but definitely there. The exhaust tips were always sooty. I now have an RS3 for two years and 17k miles or so, always used 504, and the exhaust is WAY cleaner. The RS3 also consumes a lot more oil than my GTI did and it is still much cleaner.

Yes, VW504.00/507.00 is lower SAPS compared to VW502.00. But, take into consideration that most VW504.00/507.00 oils are also MB 229.51, BMW LL04. I used in BMW X5 35d Mobil1 ESP Formula 5W30, because of numerous approvals, and I think that is best way to go. Get oil that has your necessary approval, but also that has others that could contribute to overall better performance.
 
I can also say that my Passat has NO soot on the pipes or body whatsoever. I don't know if that's because of the oil or not.
 
I have no pictures since I observed and changed the oil, and cleaned the exhaust tips. 6k miles later, tips still shiny chrome

SAPS is a common term used to describe a particular ratio of content in European engine oils. SAPS is an acronym, and it stands for Sulfated Ash, Phosphorus, and Sulfur.

SAPS content is needed to help retain the engine oil's Total Base Number (TBN), resist viscosity shear loss and thermal breakdown, as well as protect against oxidation, wear, corrosion, and deposit formation; all of which are necessary for extended oil drain intervals.

Sulphated Ash is the amount of metallic content that remains as a result of engine oil combustion. These are mostly derived from the engine oil's anti-wear and detergent additive chemistry.

Because Sulfated Ash deposits are non-combustible, they cannot be removed by regeneration, and will instead collect in the DPF or other exhaust aftertreatment device.

Too high a concentration of Sulfated Ash will block the DPF, and can cause the engine to lose power and not function properly, and may cause deposits to form on internal engine parts, which can damage the engine.

Phosphorus is an additive, providing anti-wear protection and improving oxidation resistance. The Phosphorus forms a thin layer on metal surfaces, limiting friction of metal parts rubbing together.

Sulfur is also an additive, contributing to overall engine cleanliness, as well as providing anti-wear and antioxidant protection.

Despite their favourable anti-wear and cleanliness properties, too high a concentration of Phosphorus and Sulfur content can poison and damage a vehicle's catalyst converter, as well as lead to a buildup of Sulphated Ash in the engine and aftertreatment device.
 
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Russells
My evidence is anectodal, but I owned a Mk6 GTI for about 7.5 years, always used 502 oil. I proactively did a valve cleaning at 48k miles, it wasn't horrible but definitely there. The exhaust tips were always sooty. I now have an RS3 for two years and 17k miles or so, always used 504, and the exhaust is WAY cleaner. The RS3 also consumes a lot more oil than my GTI did and it is still much cleaner.


I am not surprised! The VW oil finally solves the Carbon build-up/soot issues plague Certain Euro engine builders and DFI ignition systems for years! This oil is just that good
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by wemay
ARCOgraphite said:
There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

Plausible indeed.



People really need to stop telling people to avoid this spec. In the US, this LOW-Sap oil has everything to do with the carbon/valve build-up and damage to the CATs. There are well documented several warranty claims on low mileage VW engines that called for 504/508/507 specs. Mainly triggering Engine lights due to the emissions system. Anyone look at the tailpipe of a low-saps VW cert oil on new engine requiring Low-saps After 8k miles??? You barely see any carbon build-up especially on 93octane. In fact that's why all VW dealerships are being forced to stoke the correct spec oils. Hence the switch to Mobile from Castro's and the dealers now stocking the right stuff. In Europe, the Low-Saps protects the Particulate filters.

My buddies 2.0T tripped an engine light after 20K. Checked the history, they were putting regular Castro's 5w-30 and dumped to much carbon in the system!

Só please stop giving bad advise on the VW spec..it is imperative. By the way, the green dye burns away after a few hundred miles...so it's not for warranty purposes

That specification is not anymore strict on SAPS then VW504.00/507.00.
Actually, if CBU is main concern as well as CAT pollution, then VW504.00/507.00 in combination with MB229.51 (SA limit less than 0.8%, P limit is 0.05-0.09%, Noack limit 10%) should be used.
Noack limit on VW504.00/507.00 is 13% (rarely any is so high) and SA limit is 1.0-1.5%, while P limit is 0.08-0.15%
In interest of warranty VW504.00/507.00 should be used. In interest of engine performance, MB229.51 should be used.
So, Mobil1 ESP 5W30 will do the trick.


Not sure what exactly your referring to. ALL of the new VW specs are low-SAPS. The only difference is the viscosity. The all have the same goals. Although, the 0W-20 contains an even better base. The VW oils stay in grade throughout the full OCI...think 18K. And some other wear tests VW requires that I would have to research. SÃ .8% is the same on non ESP mobile oils such as Extended Protection and Phosphorus is also low on all the premium Mobil oils. SÃ is only part of the picture. NOAK being so high doesn't matter since it doesn't oxidize.
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by wemay
ARCOgraphite said:
There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

Plausible indeed.



People really need to stop telling people to avoid this spec. In the US, this LOW-Sap oil has everything to do with the carbon/valve build-up and damage to the CATs. There are well documented several warranty claims on low mileage VW engines that called for 504/508/507 specs. Mainly triggering Engine lights due to the emissions system. Anyone look at the tailpipe of a low-saps VW cert oil on new engine requiring Low-saps After 8k miles??? You barely see any carbon build-up especially on 93octane. In fact that's why all VW dealerships are being forced to stoke the correct spec oils. Hence the switch to Mobile from Castro's and the dealers now stocking the right stuff. In Europe, the Low-Saps protects the Particulate filters.

My buddies 2.0T tripped an engine light after 20K. Checked the history, they were putting regular Castro's 5w-30 and dumped to much carbon in the system!

Só please stop giving bad advise on the VW spec..it is imperative. By the way, the green dye burns away after a few hundred miles...so it's not for warranty purposes

That specification is not anymore strict on SAPS then VW504.00/507.00.
Actually, if CBU is main concern as well as CAT pollution, then VW504.00/507.00 in combination with MB229.51 (SA limit less than 0.8%, P limit is 0.05-0.09%, Noack limit 10%) should be used.
Noack limit on VW504.00/507.00 is 13% (rarely any is so high) and SA limit is 1.0-1.5%, while P limit is 0.08-0.15%
In interest of warranty VW504.00/507.00 should be used. In interest of engine performance, MB229.51 should be used.
So, Mobil1 ESP 5W30 will do the trick.


Not sure what exactly your referring to. ALL of the new VW specs are low-SAPS. The only difference is the viscosity. The all have the same goals. Although, the 0W-20 contains an even better base. The VW oils stay in grade throughout the full OCI...think 18K. And some other wear tests VW requires that I would have to research. SÃ .8% is the same on non ESP mobile oils such as Extended Protection and Phosphorus is also low on all the premium Mobil oils. SÃ is only part of the picture. NOAK being so high doesn't matter since it doesn't oxidize.


And HTHS, as 504/507 is still 3.5 cP minimum. 508/509 is lower, iirc 2.6 to 3.5 cP.
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
SAPS is a common term used to describe a particular ratio of content in European engine oils. SAPS is an acronym, and it stands for Sulfated Ash, Phosphorus, and Sulfur.

SAPS is not specifically a Euro thing, although it came to light in Europe due to DPF deployment - although this is only really concerned with the SA part.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
SAPS content is needed to help retain the engine oil's Total Base Number (TBN), resist viscosity shear loss and thermal breakdown, as well as protect against oxidation, wear, corrosion, and deposit formation; all of which are necessary for extended oil drain intervals.

To be pedantic, there is no "SAPS content" in any oil. There is phosphorus and sulfur content but sulfated ash is only found in the lab test that looks for it and requires combustion and digestion of the oil in acid. Also, which part of SAPS would you ascribe to resisting viscosity shear loss?

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Because Sulfated Ash deposits are non-combustible, they cannot be removed by regeneration, and will instead collect in the DPF or other exhaust aftertreatment device.

Strictly speaking, this is only "ash", not "sulfated ash". The oil does not generate sulfated ash in use, just ash.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Too high a concentration of Sulfated Ash will block the DPF, and can cause the engine to lose power and not function properly, and may cause deposits to form on internal engine parts, which can damage the engine.

Another consequence of DPF blocking is that it initiates a regen cycle, which uses extra fuel. Increased regens can lead to fuel dilution as well as reduced fuel economy.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Phosphorus is an additive, providing anti-wear protection and improving oxidation resistance. The Phosphorus forms a thin layer on metal surfaces, limiting friction of metal parts rubbing together.

Again, strictly speaking phosphorus is an element that is in an additive that reduces wear (and oxidation). You don't just add phosphorus to the oil.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Sulfur is also an additive, contributing to overall engine cleanliness, as well as providing anti-wear and antioxidant protection.

Some of the sulfur that is found in engine oil comes from the ZDDP - it is the 'thio' part of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate. Mineral base oils also have sulfur in them. It can be found in the detergents, depending on which type are used.

Often the term "SAPS" is used when actually just "SA" is meant. AFAIK there is no specification that combines SA, P and S to generate a limit on SAPS.
 
Oils meeting the 508.00 spec and their numbers....
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...th-vw-508-00-509-00-approval#Post5324234


For those discussing SAPS...



Capture.PNG
 
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by wemay
ARCOgraphite said:
There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

Plausible indeed.



People really need to stop telling people to avoid this spec. In the US, this LOW-Sap oil has everything to do with the carbon/valve build-up and damage to the CATs. There are well documented several warranty claims on low mileage VW engines that called for 504/508/507 specs. Mainly triggering Engine lights due to the emissions system. Anyone look at the tailpipe of a low-saps VW cert oil on new engine requiring Low-saps After 8k miles??? You barely see any carbon build-up especially on 93octane. In fact that's why all VW dealerships are being forced to stoke the correct spec oils. Hence the switch to Mobile from Castro's and the dealers now stocking the right stuff. In Europe, the Low-Saps protects the Particulate filters.

My buddies 2.0T tripped an engine light after 20K. Checked the history, they were putting regular Castro's 5w-30 and dumped to much carbon in the system!

Só please stop giving bad advise on the VW spec..it is imperative. By the way, the green dye burns away after a few hundred miles...so it's not for warranty purposes

That specification is not anymore strict on SAPS then VW504.00/507.00.
Actually, if CBU is main concern as well as CAT pollution, then VW504.00/507.00 in combination with MB229.51 (SA limit less than 0.8%, P limit is 0.05-0.09%, Noack limit 10%) should be used.
Noack limit on VW504.00/507.00 is 13% (rarely any is so high) and SA limit is 1.0-1.5%, while P limit is 0.08-0.15%
In interest of warranty VW504.00/507.00 should be used. In interest of engine performance, MB229.51 should be used.
So, Mobil1 ESP 5W30 will do the trick.


Not sure what exactly your referring to. ALL of the new VW specs are low-SAPS. The only difference is the viscosity. The all have the same goals. Although, the 0W-20 contains an even better base. The VW oils stay in grade throughout the full OCI...think 18K. And some other wear tests VW requires that I would have to research. SÃ .8% is the same on non ESP mobile oils such as Extended Protection and Phosphorus is also low on all the premium Mobil oils. SÃ is only part of the picture. NOAK being so high doesn't matter since it doesn't oxidize.

You just gave us partially correct run down that pretty much everyone knows here, but you are saying you are not sure what I am referring to?
You can find SAPS limits in all VW specifications, as well as MB, BMW etc. When you find, compare it and you can easily figure out which oil is lower SAPS. VW specifications are not "low" SAPS, they are on Mid to lower SAPS specifications. Also, if you are concerned about CBU, CAT's or DPF/GPF you have to take Noack into consideration, and VW specifications are not as strict as MB 229.51/52.
Click to expand...
 
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