2018-19 Passat. Valvoline EU recommendations. 0W20 is nowhere

[TheIceStormof06]

Originally Posted by weasley
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
SAPS is a common term used to describe a particular ratio of content in European engine oils. SAPS is an acronym, and it stands for Sulfated Ash, Phosphorus, and Sulfur.

SAPS is not specifically a Euro thing, although it came to light in Europe due to DPF deployment - although this is only really concerned with the SA part.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
SAPS content is needed to help retain the engine oil's Total Base Number (TBN), resist viscosity shear loss and thermal breakdown, as well as protect against oxidation, wear, corrosion, and deposit formation; all of which are necessary for extended oil drain intervals.

To be pedantic, there is no "SAPS content" in any oil. There is phosphorus and sulfur content but sulfated ash is only found in the lab test that looks for it and requires combustion and digestion of the oil in acid. Also, which part of SAPS would you ascribe to resisting viscosity shear loss?

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Because Sulfated Ash deposits are non-combustible, they cannot be removed by regeneration, and will instead collect in the DPF or other exhaust aftertreatment device.

Strictly speaking, this is only "ash", not "sulfated ash". The oil does not generate sulfated ash in use, just ash.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Too high a concentration of Sulfated Ash will block the DPF, and can cause the engine to lose power and not function properly, and may cause deposits to form on internal engine parts, which can damage the engine.

Another consequence of DPF blocking is that it initiates a regen cycle, which uses extra fuel. Increased regens can lead to fuel dilution as well as reduced fuel economy.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Phosphorus is an additive, providing anti-wear protection and improving oxidation resistance. The Phosphorus forms a thin layer on metal surfaces, limiting friction of metal parts rubbing together.

Again, strictly speaking phosphorus is an element that is in an additive that reduces wear (and oxidation). You don't just add phosphorus to the oil.

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Sulfur is also an additive, contributing to overall engine cleanliness, as well as providing anti-wear and antioxidant protection.

Some of the sulfur that is found in engine oil comes from the ZDDP - it is the 'thio' part of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate. Mineral base oils also have sulfur in them. It can be found in the detergents, depending on which type are used.

Often the term "SAPS" is used when actually just "SA" is meant. AFAIK there is no specification that combines SA, P and S to generate a limit on SAPS.


@Weasley, I am Not sure why you responded to correct my post. What I posted came straight from Klondike Lubricants a major oil supplier in Europe. I would have to say what I said about was 100% accurate

https://klondikelubricants.com/05/low-and-mid-saps-content-in-european-engine-oils-explained/

 

[TheIceStormof06]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by edyvw

There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

Plausible indeed.


Not sure what exactly your referring to. ALL of the new VW specs are low-SAPS. The only difference is the viscosity. The all have the same goals. Although, the 0W-20 contains an even better base. The VW oils stay in grade throughout the full OCI...think 18K. And some other wear tests VW requires that I would have to research. SÃ .8% is the same on non ESP mobile oils such as Extended Protection and Phosphorus is also low on all the premium Mobil oils. SÃ is only part of the picture. NOAK being so high doesn't matter since it doesn't oxidize.

You just gave us partially correct run down that pretty much everyone knows here, but you are saying you are not sure what I am referring to?
You can find SAPS limits in all VW specifications, as well as MB, BMW etc. When you find, compare it and you can easily figure out which oil is lower SAPS. VW specifications are not "low" SAPS, they are on Mid to lower SAPS specifications. Also, if you are concerned about CBU, CAT's or DPF/GPF you have to take Noack into consideration, and VW specifications are not as strict as MB 229.51/52.



Partially correct? No offense but edyvw, but I guess the manufactures and engineers of Low-mid SAPS synthetic lubricants don't know what they are talking about and you know more than they do? https://klondikelubricants.com/05/low-and-mid-saps-content-in-european-engine-oils-explained/

Btw, I believe the newer VW certifications limit SÃ to .09%. My point is IF sulfated ash is all about just what low SAPS levels are all about for the new VW cert, than regular Mobil 1 EP would work. That's also SA = .08%. My point is it's deeper than this and people need to stop saying to use any oil in the VW engines.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by edyvw

There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

Plausible indeed.


Not sure what exactly your referring to. ALL of the new VW specs are low-SAPS. The only difference is the viscosity. The all have the same goals. Although, the 0W-20 contains an even better base. The VW oils stay in grade throughout the full OCI...think 18K. And some other wear tests VW requires that I would have to research. SÃ .8% is the same on non ESP mobile oils such as Extended Protection and Phosphorus is also low on all the premium Mobil oils. SÃ is only part of the picture. NOAK being so high doesn't matter since it doesn't oxidize.

You just gave us partially correct run down that pretty much everyone knows here, but you are saying you are not sure what I am referring to?
You can find SAPS limits in all VW specifications, as well as MB, BMW etc. When you find, compare it and you can easily figure out which oil is lower SAPS. VW specifications are not "low" SAPS, they are on Mid to lower SAPS specifications. Also, if you are concerned about CBU, CAT's or DPF/GPF you have to take Noack into consideration, and VW specifications are not as strict as MB 229.51/52.



Partially correct? No offense but edyvw, but I guess the manufactures and engineers of Low-mid SAPS synthetic lubricants don't know what they are talking about and you know more than they do? https://klondikelubricants.com/05/low-and-mid-saps-content-in-european-engine-oils-explained/

Btw, I believe the newer VW certifications limit SÃ to .09%. My point is IF sulfated ash is all about just what low SAPS levels are all about for the new VW cert, than regular Mobil 1 EP would work. That's also SA = .08%. My point is it's deeper than this and people need to stop saying to use any oil in the VW engines.

Low SAPS oils are lower than .08%. Who said here that people are saying that ANY oil could be used in VW?

 

[wemay]

I haven't read where edvw, weasley or Jimmy_Russells said "use any oil in the VW engines". What i have seen edvw and other's say is that other, recent volkswagen approved oils have workded just fine in the EA888. And some like edvw taking it further by stating he wouldn't run 508 because its a 0w-20.

 

[TheIceStormof06]

Originally Posted by wemay
I haven't read where edvw, weasley or Jimmy_Russells said "use any oil in the VW engines". What i have seen edvw and other's say is that other, recent volkswagen approved oils have workded just fine in the EA888. And some like edvw taking it further by stating he wouldn't run 508 because its a 0w-20.


I was referring to my very first post in the thread which is what I referred to. You actually agreed with ARCO?

ARCOgraphite posted:

There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

But, for Warranty and that pesky tracer dye that VAG specs....

We may responded:

Plausible indeed.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by wemay
I haven't read where edvw, weasley or Jimmy_Russells said "use any oil in the VW engines". What i have seen edvw and other's say is that other, recent volkswagen approved oils have workded just fine in the EA888. And some like edvw taking it further by stating he wouldn't run 508 because its a 0w-20.


I was referring to my very first post in the thread which is what I referred to. You actually agreed with ARCO?

ARCOgraphite posted:

There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

But, for Warranty and that pesky tracer dye that VAG specs....

We may responded:

Plausible indeed.

They would do trick for some time. There is much more to it than just grade.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
Originally Posted by wemay
I haven't read where edvw, weasley or Jimmy_Russells said "use any oil in the VW engines". What i have seen edvw and other's say is that other, recent volkswagen approved oils have workded just fine in the EA888. And some like edvw taking it further by stating he wouldn't run 508 because its a 0w-20.


I was referring to my very first post in the thread which is what I referred to. You actually agreed with ARCO?

ARCOgraphite posted:

There is no reason why a M1 EP or Castrol Edge Extended Performance wouldn't do the trick.

But, for Warranty and that pesky tracer dye that VAG specs....

We may responded:

Plausible indeed.


Yes, if taken in context, they may...it is plausible. That's not me saying it will do as good a job or for the mileage recommended by VAG. Nor that I would do it. But it is plausible. Nothing more, nothing less. I do believe this spec goes way beyond merely being a 0W-20. They all say LL for a reason.

BTW
After changing the oil recently I can report this 508 stuff smells completely different to anything I've used in the past. It's very pungent in a BO kinda way.

 

[TheIceStormof06]

Lol @ BO

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
@Weasley, I am Not sure why you responded to correct my post. What I posted came straight from Klondike Lubricants a major oil supplier in Europe. I would have to say what I said about was 100% accurate

https://klondikelubricants.com/05/low-and-mid-saps-content-in-european-engine-oils-explained/

I responded to add more detail and correct some over-simplifications. You posted that information with no reference to the source, so it looked as if it was directly from you (some call this plagiarism).

I live in Europe and work in the lubricants industry here - have done for over 27 years. Klondike Lubricants are definitely not a "major oil supplier in Europe". In fact I'm not sure I'd even heard of them before this post.

 

[TheIceStormof06]

Originally Posted by weasley
Originally Posted by TheIceStormof06
@Weasley, I am Not sure why you responded to correct my post. What I posted came straight from Klondike Lubricants a major oil supplier in Europe. I would have to say what I said about was 100% accurate

https://klondikelubricants.com/05/low-and-mid-saps-content-in-european-engine-oils-explained/

I responded to add more detail and correct some over-simplifications. You posted that information with no reference to the source, so it looked as if it was directly from you (some call this plagiarism).

I live in Europe and work in the lubricants industry here - have done for over 27 years. Klondike Lubricants are definitely not a "major oil supplier in Europe". In fact I'm not sure I'd even heard of them before this post.


That's a fair criticism. The link should've been included as I copied and snipped from a website. Guess it was just the platform I used to post. Apologies. I purposely wanted something over-simplified as there's so many posts on this forum that overcomplicates simple information that is counterproductive to the value offered to the lay(regular) user visiting this forum for simpke questions to be addressed.

FYI, if you do a search, saps vs Low-saps, you will see the same core information.

Again, i originally posted on this subject as I have a VW product as do friends that find VW/Audi dealerships using regular bulk oil not meeting the correct specifications. This is harmful in the mid-long term of ownership for those planning on keeping the vehicle Beyond drivetrain warranty. My point was for those consumers, use the VW cert on VW vehicles so to protect CATs, Emissions systems and reduce Carbon valve deposits. That is the goal of this oil and it's what it does. SIMPLE!

 

[Olas]

0w20 is part of 'The Great NA Experiment', all manufacturers have a global agreement to let NA drivers beta-test all the new bearing clearances and materials, and the funky viscosities supported by said innovations.
The cars only have to last through warranty and you buy a new one while the manufacturers get paid to collect data and develop new technologies.

CAFE (Cars Are Freely Expendable) wants to see how many miles the average motorist can coax out of an engine full of vegetable ester derived -5w8

 

[Jimmy_Russells]

Originally Posted by Olas
0w20 is part of 'The Great NA Experiment', all manufacturers have a global agreement to let NA drivers beta-test all the new bearing clearances and materials, and the funky viscosities supported by said innovations.
The cars only have to last through warranty and you buy a new one while the manufacturers get paid to collect data and develop new technologies.

CAFE (Cars Are Freely Expendable) wants to see how many miles the average motorist can coax out of an engine full of vegetable ester derived -5w8



Uhh, sure.

Driving in North America and even in Japan is very different compared to a lot of Europe. Low speed limits, lots of city driving, lots of short trips, lots of traffic. Of course those things also exist in Europe but they also have the opportunity to drive much faster for much longer, and even the regular posted speed limit in EU countries is much higher than most of North America and Japan. In these situations we see here, thicker oil is not really necessary and can even be detrimental.

Going back to something mentioned earlier, it seems the 0w20 Euro oils aren't really vastly different to regular ILSAC 0w20's. I would guess the main difference is longlife requirement. This is partly why I started the BMW LL-17 thread, I was trying to find out the actual differences. When comparing a Euro 5w30 to a regular ILSAC 5w30 , there is a big difference.

 

[wemay]

Is there a specific requirement for an oil to be labeled "Long Life" (LL)?

For instance, M1 AP and EDGE EP have no LL designation.

 

[racin4ds]

Originally Posted by Olas
0w20 is part of 'The Great NA Experiment', all manufacturers have a global agreement to let NA drivers beta-test all the new bearing clearances and materials, and the funky viscosities supported by said innovations.
The cars only have to last through warranty and you buy a new one while the manufacturers get paid to collect data and develop new technologies.

CAFE (Cars Are Freely Expendable) wants to see how many miles the average motorist can coax out of an engine full of vegetable ester derived -5w8


This is the greatest thing I've seen in awhile and oh so true! Love the CAFE dig too! Sadly, the sheep on this page love the 0W20 and 0W16 junk that is being pushed on us now. Heck, they still think additives are useless and that $20 jug of M1 on the shelf at walmart has nothing but your engine longevity in mind with all of the greatest ingredients already in it!

 

[4WD]

There is nothing of value in your post other than your self delight

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by racin4ds
Originally Posted by Olas
0w20 is part of 'The Great NA Experiment', all manufacturers have a global agreement to let NA drivers beta-test all the new bearing clearances and materials, and the funky viscosities supported by said innovations.
The cars only have to last through warranty and you buy a new one while the manufacturers get paid to collect data and develop new technologies.

CAFE (Cars Are Freely Expendable) wants to see how many miles the average motorist can coax out of an engine full of vegetable ester derived -5w8


This is the greatest thing I've seen in awhile and oh so true! Love the CAFE dig too! Sadly, the sheep on this page love the 0W20 and 0W16 junk that is being pushed on us now. Heck, they still think additives are useless and that $20 jug of M1 on the shelf at walmart has nothing but your engine longevity in mind with all of the greatest ingredients already in it!

Must be quite the party in that echo chamber!