This van had 43000 miles on it, I am running a catch can, mostly highway miles, Kirkland 5W-30 Oil and Motorcraft FL500-s filter. Also a Fumoto drain valve. I could go to 8k OCI but probably won't due to the timing chain guide horror stories I read about.
2017 Ford Transit 3.5 Ecoboost, ~6500 OCI, Kirkland 5W-30
- Thread starter tom in boise
- Start date
This is a mid roof passenger van converted (lightly) to a camper van (no water, no gray water, no kitchen). It also has the Quigley 4X4 conversion and 3.31 axles. The rig weighs around 6600lbs with us in it. I typically drive 5 over on the interstate, so 78-83mph out here in the west. We were not towing but this did include a lot of mountain driving in Colorado.
Another report that shows Kirkland oil is great oil and no need to pay crazy prices for big brand oils. I would do 7.5K OCI if you run all highway.
dnewton3
Staff member
I am going to challenge you, in a friendly way and not to antaganize, as to why you think a longer or shorter OCI will make the timing chain guide last or degrade? I don't see that OCI duration really has a significant ability to alter the guide life. Do you have proof or data that shows X,xxx miles of oil use = Y% of timing chain guide life?
I ask because I find this to be a somewhat common there in many threads, but I've never seen any data to back it up. Are you reading anedotcal stories of supposition, or have you seen/read a fact-based study, or what?
In theory, how is it that you believe 6.5k mile OCIs are "acceptable"? If 6.5k miles is OK, would 5k be "better"? Or why not 3k miles? If you cannot prove that shorter is better, then how can you claim that longer OCIs are not?
I find these types of assertions as specious. I am challenging you, but really I'm speaking to anyone whom subscribes to this theory. Again - this isn't meant to personally attack you, but challenge anyone to prove their theory and not just regurgitate rhetoric.
As for the UOA, the data speaks for itself.
I think controlling oil temperature has a larger impact on guide degradation than just about anything. Maintaining the cooling system and making sure the engine doesn't get hot is the largest contributor. Plastic guides are temp sensitive.
Dn3 it's always good to see you on here.
While I see what you are saying and largely agree with you...
How many manufacturers are doing long term testing on timing chains or guides as it relates to oci ??
How many manufacturers are testing their motors past 100k miles, 150k miles 250k miles testing for chain wear or guide wear related to short or long ocis ??
That would be interesting to find out if any manufacturers have actually done that... Any of that type of testing.
Not saying it has not been performed.
Throw in Ecoboost aspect does it make the motor harder on the oil ??
Does chain length and amount of chains make it harder on the oil ?
Should GDI motors be good candidates for long long runs ? Of course partially depending upon typical usage conditions...
What about soot build up in the oil ??
Does that possibility make GDI motors not the best candidate for longer change intervals ? In regards to chain and guide wear ?
And that circles back to what you have articulated very well here....
Does shorter change intervals really make chain and guide wear better at all ? ?
And in that meaning... Does fresher/ cleaner oil on average have any effect on timing chain and guide wear ?
Or is that false economy and false hope?
Page 7 of the bulletin discusses GM shortening the OLM dictated intervals (via revised software calibration) to address timing chain wear.
Of course this is only one isolated example, but from a tech standpoint, there does seem to be some correlation between the two. This may/may not be supported by data.
I think the relationship between chain wear and oil change interval is linked to oil contamination levels. “Dirty” oil is abrasive and accelerates chain wear. Perhaps doing a particle count is more relevant than a UOA.
dnewton3
Staff member
Critic, and all -
I was more interested in tom In boise's statement about the timing chain GUIDES, not the chains themselves. How does the "horror stories" he's heard about make the 6.5k mile OCI ok for the guide, but 8k miles won't? And if 6.5K is OK, is 5k "better"? Is 4k more better? Is 3k miles extra-super-duper-more-better????
When I see claims like these, I frankly find them meritless most of the time. All I'm asking for is the links or sites which can PROVE that an extension of 1.5k miles is somehow going to grenade the timing chain guide.
I would agree with the comments above; more likely that heat and age make a guide degrade, not OCI miles. Oil with 8k miles on it won't get any "hotter", nor does it make the guide age "faster", than oil with 4k or 6k miles on it.
I was more interested in tom In boise's statement about the timing chain GUIDES, not the chains themselves. How does the "horror stories" he's heard about make the 6.5k mile OCI ok for the guide, but 8k miles won't? And if 6.5K is OK, is 5k "better"? Is 4k more better? Is 3k miles extra-super-duper-more-better????
When I see claims like these, I frankly find them meritless most of the time. All I'm asking for is the links or sites which can PROVE that an extension of 1.5k miles is somehow going to grenade the timing chain guide.
I would agree with the comments above; more likely that heat and age make a guide degrade, not OCI miles. Oil with 8k miles on it won't get any "hotter", nor does it make the guide age "faster", than oil with 4k or 6k miles on it.
What catch can are you running? Also how much oil are you getting in the catch can with the supertech? Is it more or less than previous oils?
I have no data, no SAE study, nothing to base my decision on. Kirkland oil is cheap and oil changes are easy. Timing chain guides are expensive.
I have one data point from this analysis that says I can likely safely run an OCI from 5 to 10k with low risk, which is why I sent in the sample in the first place.
I installed the JLT catch can when I bought the van (used with 30k miles on it). I've only run supertech/Kirkland in it. It has1-2 ounces every 3k miles.
dnewton3
Staff member
Thanks. But that really doesn't address your comment about timing chain guides. You initally indicated that you'll not push it to 8k miles because of "horror stories" you've read about. Now you state you can safely run "5 to 10k with low risk".
My point is that the UOA isn't going to tell you how safe your timing chain guides are; there's nothing that'll tell you if your selected OCI is OK or not relative to chain guide longevity. Pick the OCI duartion based on the UOA data regarding wear metals and contamiation, because there's nothing there to clue you in on timing chain guides. And in that regard, I'd agree that 8k miles is a no brainer and 10k miles doable if this type performance continues.
There really is no UOA results that could show chain guide wear. What would show plastic or nylon? If you think about it heat degrades plastic/nylon, heat is known to be a a huge contributor to degradation of plastic. Also I think allowing the oil to become to acidic from a long change interval could contribute to degradation. When guides become brittle or tensioners don't maintain tension and chains slap guides that's when things begin to go sideways in a hurry.
But again a whole lot if this is from poor engine design in most cases and there is no oil that will make up for the deficiency of a poor design. Poor maintenance on the other hand is completely correctable.
But again a whole lot if this is from poor engine design in most cases and there is no oil that will make up for the deficiency of a poor design. Poor maintenance on the other hand is completely correctable.
Sorry if bumping this thread after 4 months inactivity is bad form, but I am keenly interested in any EB 3.5 discussion and especially UOA’s. To Tom (the OP), congratulations, you appear to have a well-behaved EB Transit. I can’t tell you how much I wish I had UOA’s like yours. I think you really lucked out getting this used with such an apparently solid engine. I have had all sorts of alarming UOA results, mostly regarding fuel dilution.
I hope you will keep us posted with future UOA’s, though I think there are better options than Blackstone for an engine family known to have fuel dilution problems (not that you do, but a fairly high percentage of 3.5 EB’s do). Now, I don’t know what “high percentage” means, except it is way way larger than 0%, and unfortunately, I am one of the non-0%ers. I’m not even sure EB’s are any worse than any other GTDI engine from any other manufacturer. I may try TestOil lab next, but think at least use Oil Analysers instead of Blackstone. Both TestOil & OA do a “real” test for fuel, and have oxidation & nitration results. That said, I don’t know accuracy of any service, hopefully good. And I admit, Blackstone’s analyser’s text review is better than OA’s…which is pretty clueless.
But you must have had some inkling of this potential problem if you added a catch can. I am considering the catch can approach. I’m thinking, since I am routinely getting 2.5%-4.5% fuel, my can would catch more than 1-2 oz per OC.
Of course, what oil I use, does not cause the fuel dilution, but I’m thinking what oil I use does impact the oil’s resilience to the dilution. (Here comes a flame from DNewton or Blackstone). My first batch of SP generation oil (QS full syn) is in the sump as we speak, with next OC being late spring / early summer. I want to believe it has all sorts of chain and guide-protecting goodness missing in early 2015 Motorcraft SemiSyn (SN-only) and ~2017-18 Pennzoil Plat (some SN, some early SN plus). I never did any UOA’s until ~36k mi which was on the Pennzoil, and results were pretty scary. My use case is 2 changes per yr: 1 change over the summer camping season, which sees 4000+ highway miles, plus 3000+- short trip and/or forest road use. The other change carries it over the winter months which might or might not see any long trips, but this year is mostly 25-100 mile “commutes” to nearby state parks and such…mostly highway. As my mileage has averaged ~11k-12k per year, that means the “winter” change is at a shorter interval (one was less than 3000 because I wanted fresh oil for the camping summer). Current fill is obviously the shorter winter fill, though could be one of the longer winter ones if I take a trip to Sedona or such. I don’t like the Transit version of the Oil Life Monitor, which gives no percentage, just a “jolt” to “change oil now,” for who know what reason (I suspect 1 year or 10,000 mi)…but maybe other Transit owners experience more “intelligence” from the monitor than I have. And personally, from my results, 10k is too long…in my engine. FE isn’t horrible, but Cu is high and other issues with Nitration, water, and some other metals. We‘ll see how the QS does, but I wouldn’t freak out using what your using, if I had results like yours…in fact, I’d be smiling…and giving the one-finger salute every time I passed the Ford dealer…or I don’t know, maybe you should be blowing kisses their way.
PS, i can’t remember whether your year has the 6-speed or 10-speed transmission, though it may not matter…I would look after it’s fluid MUCH more than Ford recommends. My Mercon LV was pretty contaminated at <60k. I did a full flush. If you are capable of DIY trans fluid changes, it might not be a bad idea to do a partial change soon. Freshen it up every so often starting sooner rather than later. 2 back-to-back 4qt drain-and-fills now, and then 1 every 24k would keep things cleaner inside…because you will never be able to service the trans filter without major tear down of the front suspension crossmember. I’m not an expert (obviously) but I chose not to mix fluids…ie, I flushed with genuine Motorcraft Mercon…at a dealer. I’ve been told Amsoil is OK to mix, lots of opinions out there on that topic.
I hope you will keep us posted with future UOA’s, though I think there are better options than Blackstone for an engine family known to have fuel dilution problems (not that you do, but a fairly high percentage of 3.5 EB’s do). Now, I don’t know what “high percentage” means, except it is way way larger than 0%, and unfortunately, I am one of the non-0%ers. I’m not even sure EB’s are any worse than any other GTDI engine from any other manufacturer. I may try TestOil lab next, but think at least use Oil Analysers instead of Blackstone. Both TestOil & OA do a “real” test for fuel, and have oxidation & nitration results. That said, I don’t know accuracy of any service, hopefully good. And I admit, Blackstone’s analyser’s text review is better than OA’s…which is pretty clueless.
But you must have had some inkling of this potential problem if you added a catch can. I am considering the catch can approach. I’m thinking, since I am routinely getting 2.5%-4.5% fuel, my can would catch more than 1-2 oz per OC.
Of course, what oil I use, does not cause the fuel dilution, but I’m thinking what oil I use does impact the oil’s resilience to the dilution. (Here comes a flame from DNewton or Blackstone). My first batch of SP generation oil (QS full syn) is in the sump as we speak, with next OC being late spring / early summer. I want to believe it has all sorts of chain and guide-protecting goodness missing in early 2015 Motorcraft SemiSyn (SN-only) and ~2017-18 Pennzoil Plat (some SN, some early SN plus). I never did any UOA’s until ~36k mi which was on the Pennzoil, and results were pretty scary. My use case is 2 changes per yr: 1 change over the summer camping season, which sees 4000+ highway miles, plus 3000+- short trip and/or forest road use. The other change carries it over the winter months which might or might not see any long trips, but this year is mostly 25-100 mile “commutes” to nearby state parks and such…mostly highway. As my mileage has averaged ~11k-12k per year, that means the “winter” change is at a shorter interval (one was less than 3000 because I wanted fresh oil for the camping summer). Current fill is obviously the shorter winter fill, though could be one of the longer winter ones if I take a trip to Sedona or such. I don’t like the Transit version of the Oil Life Monitor, which gives no percentage, just a “jolt” to “change oil now,” for who know what reason (I suspect 1 year or 10,000 mi)…but maybe other Transit owners experience more “intelligence” from the monitor than I have. And personally, from my results, 10k is too long…in my engine. FE isn’t horrible, but Cu is high and other issues with Nitration, water, and some other metals. We‘ll see how the QS does, but I wouldn’t freak out using what your using, if I had results like yours…in fact, I’d be smiling…and giving the one-finger salute every time I passed the Ford dealer…or I don’t know, maybe you should be blowing kisses their way.
PS, i can’t remember whether your year has the 6-speed or 10-speed transmission, though it may not matter…I would look after it’s fluid MUCH more than Ford recommends. My Mercon LV was pretty contaminated at <60k. I did a full flush. If you are capable of DIY trans fluid changes, it might not be a bad idea to do a partial change soon. Freshen it up every so often starting sooner rather than later. 2 back-to-back 4qt drain-and-fills now, and then 1 every 24k would keep things cleaner inside…because you will never be able to service the trans filter without major tear down of the front suspension crossmember. I’m not an expert (obviously) but I chose not to mix fluids…ie, I flushed with genuine Motorcraft Mercon…at a dealer. I’ve been told Amsoil is OK to mix, lots of opinions out there on that topic.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
If I had a GDI engine that kept showing fuel dilution and resultant viscosity loss - and it’s got some ground clearance like a pickup or SUV ? (Don’t need ramps with Fumoto)
Stick a Fumoto valve on the pan - at about 40% OLM just swap in one fresh quart of oil - next grade up if you like.
Takes 5 minutes. Now run out the OLM …
Stick a Fumoto valve on the pan - at about 40% OLM just swap in one fresh quart of oil - next grade up if you like.
Takes 5 minutes. Now run out the OLM …
Interesting technique. I doubt that swapping out even 1/4th total sump capacity would greatly alter the overall remaining mix to really give any benefit or interval longevity. The quart of fresh oil quickly spends all of its additives quickly doing a rinse and rejuvenating the old oil and the resulting viscosity, fuel dilution and TBN / TAN is close to where it was before you drained some out. Plenty of UOA with 1-2qt top off that still show the Lube is tired during sampling.
Of course literally draining out some is different then burning during normal operation but… I don’t think a bottle will change enough to warrant getting under the car and messing with Lube with hopes of helping the situation.
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
But you don’t really know that - I’m only trying to build viscosity at past midway in an oil formulated for 20k - that I will drain at between 7k-10k … (60-70% PAO) … It takes about 9 months for me to reach 10k …
Have done this with 5w30 in 0w20 … or even SAE30 …
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