2015 Honda CRV, Mobil1 0w-20, 5 samples
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I had a 2002 Accord with the 3.0L that triggered a high fuel flag with a UOA, also accompanied by a strong fuel smell to the oil, and - later - I found #6 (or was it #5?) spark plug not fouled but clearly darker than the others. Many attempts to get the dealer to deal with it resulted in "nothing wrong found" *until* I got them to keep the car overnight. It was a fuel injector that would leak down *hours* after shutoff and empty the fuel rail. After that, Honda did the injector + labor and everything.
Maybe you could get them to put their gauges or whatever on at night and check in the AM (I don't know exactly how the problem was ultimately discovered in my case, I'm just relaying what I remember of what they told me).
That said, I had (otherwise) stellar UOA reports from Honda engines.
I am due to get one for my '13 Odyssey (which I really love).
Maybe you could get them to put their gauges or whatever on at night and check in the AM (I don't know exactly how the problem was ultimately discovered in my case, I'm just relaying what I remember of what they told me).
That said, I had (otherwise) stellar UOA reports from Honda engines.
I am due to get one for my '13 Odyssey (which I really love).
Originally Posted By: Danh
0w-30 is a thought (Mobil says it's OK), but Honda specifies 0w-20 and I'll stick to that. The warranty could be useful and I'll play it by the book.
You could always just put in 1/2 quart of Mobil 1 15w-50 and just not tell Honda. That would keep the KV100 and HTHS from getting too low with the fuel dilution happening. Receipts say 0w-20, but add the 1/2 quart 15w-50 at about the 1,000 mile point.
0w-30 is a thought (Mobil says it's OK), but Honda specifies 0w-20 and I'll stick to that. The warranty could be useful and I'll play it by the book.
You could always just put in 1/2 quart of Mobil 1 15w-50 and just not tell Honda. That would keep the KV100 and HTHS from getting too low with the fuel dilution happening. Receipts say 0w-20, but add the 1/2 quart 15w-50 at about the 1,000 mile point.
The fuel dilution does not seem to be cumulative based on your frequency of testing, and the cST viscosity at 100c is still within spec even with the "drastic" amount of fuel tested in the UOA. The above combined with the lack of abnormal wear metals tells me that the issue isn't as serious as it's being made out to be by some.
Originally Posted By: Balrog006
The fuel dilution does not seem to be cumulative based on your frequency of testing, and the cST viscosity at 100c is still within spec even with the "drastic" amount of fuel tested in the UOA. The above combined with the lack of abnormal wear metals tells me that the issue isn't as serious as it's being made out to be by some.
Given the limits on Polaris' method (I.e. No granularity over 5%), we're really not sure when, if ever, dilution reaches an equilibrium. But you are correct that viscosity isn't rapidly collpapsing. Nonetheless, I wouldn't want to see the outcome if I followed the MM to a 12,000 mile OCI.
And maybe the hysteria about dilution over 2% by UOA providers is misplaced and it doesn't matter much as long as viscosity is maintained. I hope so, anyway.
The fuel dilution does not seem to be cumulative based on your frequency of testing, and the cST viscosity at 100c is still within spec even with the "drastic" amount of fuel tested in the UOA. The above combined with the lack of abnormal wear metals tells me that the issue isn't as serious as it's being made out to be by some.
Given the limits on Polaris' method (I.e. No granularity over 5%), we're really not sure when, if ever, dilution reaches an equilibrium. But you are correct that viscosity isn't rapidly collpapsing. Nonetheless, I wouldn't want to see the outcome if I followed the MM to a 12,000 mile OCI.
And maybe the hysteria about dilution over 2% by UOA providers is misplaced and it doesn't matter much as long as viscosity is maintained. I hope so, anyway.
My Honda did not have abnormal wear (abnormal compared to most other vehicles), either. However, comparing the "before" and "after" fuel dilution (mine was more than 4%) my wear numbers were very, very low. I'd have to dig them up but the response was "at this rate, the engine will never wear out. Ever."
It does seem odd that the dilution appeared to go from more than 5% to under 2% /between/ oil changes (unless I'm mis-reading that). Fuel + oil = insoluables (sp?) so maybe that's what is happening? Or it's flashing off and going through the PCV. Shrug.
Just tryin' to be helpful.
It does seem odd that the dilution appeared to go from more than 5% to under 2% /between/ oil changes (unless I'm mis-reading that). Fuel + oil = insoluables (sp?) so maybe that's what is happening? Or it's flashing off and going through the PCV. Shrug.
Just tryin' to be helpful.
Originally Posted By: Jon
My Honda did not have abnormal wear (abnormal compared to most other vehicles), either. However, comparing the "before" and "after" fuel dilution (mine was more than 4%) my wear numbers were very, very low. I'd have to dig them up but the response was "at this rate, the engine will never wear out. Ever."
It does seem odd that the dilution appeared to go from more than 5% to under 2% /between/ oil changes (unless I'm mis-reading that). Fuel + oil = insoluables (sp?) so maybe that's what is happening? Or it's flashing off and going through the PCV. Shrug.
Just tryin' to be helpful.
The report from Polaris covers two OCIs. The 1.9% dilution was the first 1,000 miles of a fresh oil change. This lowish value was either because I used 93 octane fuel or because it was simply on its way to a typical 5+%.
Not sure I get the before and after dilution comment. Are you saying wear was lower with 4%? That would be good news for sure. And was your Honda a recent, DI version? Thanks.
My Honda did not have abnormal wear (abnormal compared to most other vehicles), either. However, comparing the "before" and "after" fuel dilution (mine was more than 4%) my wear numbers were very, very low. I'd have to dig them up but the response was "at this rate, the engine will never wear out. Ever."
It does seem odd that the dilution appeared to go from more than 5% to under 2% /between/ oil changes (unless I'm mis-reading that). Fuel + oil = insoluables (sp?) so maybe that's what is happening? Or it's flashing off and going through the PCV. Shrug.
Just tryin' to be helpful.
The report from Polaris covers two OCIs. The 1.9% dilution was the first 1,000 miles of a fresh oil change. This lowish value was either because I used 93 octane fuel or because it was simply on its way to a typical 5+%.
Not sure I get the before and after dilution comment. Are you saying wear was lower with 4%? That would be good news for sure. And was your Honda a recent, DI version? Thanks.
My apologies for the unclear phrasing in my previous response. I'll try again here:
I was doing fairly regular UOAs on this vehicle as it was new. It wore in so well that by 15,000 miles or so it was basically "wear-free" between oil changes. I wasn't always the nicest to it, either.
That would refer to the "before" part.
Then I noticed it had a very slight unevenness at startup, but I'm very sensitive to such things. Further investigation revealed the fuel dilution.
Once the repair was complete, I changed the oil and ran a normal OCI + UOA. Wear levels returned to their previous "very very low" state. This is the "after" part.
In summary, it want:
In further response to another question you ask, "Was wear lower with 4% fuel dilution?" No. It was not. It was high for *this* vehicle since it already had a nice history of low wear. Compared to a different vehicle it may have been considered "normal". Does that make sense?
Except for some real stinkers ('07 and '08 inline 4 cracked heads, etc..) Honda engines are - by far - my favorite. Especially with RLI fluids. And they seem to have fixed their transmission issues around 06 or 07.
I will say that 1.9% fuel dilution in 1,000 miles seems very high to me, but what do I know about this (answer: only what I read on the Internet). Best of luck!
As a side note, maybe somebody can explain to me why changing the viscosity of a fluid changes the way it reacts chemically to fuel (a solvent). I would think additive package and overall chemistry would be a far more important consideration in such a situation.
I was doing fairly regular UOAs on this vehicle as it was new. It wore in so well that by 15,000 miles or so it was basically "wear-free" between oil changes. I wasn't always the nicest to it, either.
That would refer to the "before" part.
Then I noticed it had a very slight unevenness at startup, but I'm very sensitive to such things. Further investigation revealed the fuel dilution.
Once the repair was complete, I changed the oil and ran a normal OCI + UOA. Wear levels returned to their previous "very very low" state. This is the "after" part.
In summary, it want:
In further response to another question you ask, "Was wear lower with 4% fuel dilution?" No. It was not. It was high for *this* vehicle since it already had a nice history of low wear. Compared to a different vehicle it may have been considered "normal". Does that make sense?
Except for some real stinkers ('07 and '08 inline 4 cracked heads, etc..) Honda engines are - by far - my favorite. Especially with RLI fluids. And they seem to have fixed their transmission issues around 06 or 07.
I will say that 1.9% fuel dilution in 1,000 miles seems very high to me, but what do I know about this (answer: only what I read on the Internet). Best of luck!
As a side note, maybe somebody can explain to me why changing the viscosity of a fluid changes the way it reacts chemically to fuel (a solvent). I would think additive package and overall chemistry would be a far more important consideration in such a situation.
Originally Posted By: Jon
My apologies for the unclear phrasing in my previous response. I'll try again here:
I was doing fairly regular UOAs on this vehicle as it was new. It wore in so well that by 15,000 miles or so it was basically "wear-free" between oil changes. I wasn't always the nicest to it, either.
That would refer to the "before" part.
Then I noticed it had a very slight unevenness at startup, but I'm very sensitive to such things. Further investigation revealed the fuel dilution.
Once the repair was complete, I changed the oil and ran a normal OCI + UOA. Wear levels returned to their previous "very very low" state. This is the "after" part.
In summary, it want:
In further response to another question you ask, "Was wear lower with 4% fuel dilution?" No. It was not. It was high for *this* vehicle since it already had a nice history of low wear. Compared to a different vehicle it may have been considered "normal". Does that make sense?
Except for some real stinkers ('07 and '08 inline 4 cracked heads, etc..) Honda engines are - by far - my favorite. Especially with RLI fluids. And they seem to have fixed their transmission issues around 06 or 07.
I will say that 1.9% fuel dilution in 1,000 miles seems very high to me, but what do I know about this (answer: only what I read on the Internet). Best of luck!
As a side note, maybe somebody can explain to me why changing the viscosity of a fluid changes the way it reacts chemically to fuel (a solvent). I would think additive package and overall chemistry would be a far more important consideration in such a situation.
Thanks for the clarification. I don't think changing viscosity makes a big change the way it reacts to a solvent. The viscosity discussion here centers around the notion that fuel thins oil and thinner oil has a harder time maintaining the hydrodynamic wedge that separates bearings and the like. So a heavier oil theoretically can absorb more fuel dilution and still provide protection.
Someone may point out that oils with a wide viscosity range probably contain more viscosity index improvers than those with a narrow range. And these VIIs apparently can be permanently damaged by fuel, so the more VIIs, the more effect fuel dilution has. But Ford changed some DI EcoBoost engines from 5w-20 to 5w-30, apparently in response to fuel dilution. So in this context, heavier oil benefits seem to outweigh extra VII detriments. I guess.
My apologies for the unclear phrasing in my previous response. I'll try again here:
I was doing fairly regular UOAs on this vehicle as it was new. It wore in so well that by 15,000 miles or so it was basically "wear-free" between oil changes. I wasn't always the nicest to it, either.
That would refer to the "before" part.
Then I noticed it had a very slight unevenness at startup, but I'm very sensitive to such things. Further investigation revealed the fuel dilution.
Once the repair was complete, I changed the oil and ran a normal OCI + UOA. Wear levels returned to their previous "very very low" state. This is the "after" part.
In summary, it want:
In further response to another question you ask, "Was wear lower with 4% fuel dilution?" No. It was not. It was high for *this* vehicle since it already had a nice history of low wear. Compared to a different vehicle it may have been considered "normal". Does that make sense?
Except for some real stinkers ('07 and '08 inline 4 cracked heads, etc..) Honda engines are - by far - my favorite. Especially with RLI fluids. And they seem to have fixed their transmission issues around 06 or 07.
I will say that 1.9% fuel dilution in 1,000 miles seems very high to me, but what do I know about this (answer: only what I read on the Internet). Best of luck!
As a side note, maybe somebody can explain to me why changing the viscosity of a fluid changes the way it reacts chemically to fuel (a solvent). I would think additive package and overall chemistry would be a far more important consideration in such a situation.
Thanks for the clarification. I don't think changing viscosity makes a big change the way it reacts to a solvent. The viscosity discussion here centers around the notion that fuel thins oil and thinner oil has a harder time maintaining the hydrodynamic wedge that separates bearings and the like. So a heavier oil theoretically can absorb more fuel dilution and still provide protection.
Someone may point out that oils with a wide viscosity range probably contain more viscosity index improvers than those with a narrow range. And these VIIs apparently can be permanently damaged by fuel, so the more VIIs, the more effect fuel dilution has. But Ford changed some DI EcoBoost engines from 5w-20 to 5w-30, apparently in response to fuel dilution. So in this context, heavier oil benefits seem to outweigh extra VII detriments. I guess.
Originally Posted By: Jon
I had a 2002 Accord with the 3.0L that triggered a high fuel flag with a UOA, also accompanied by a strong fuel smell to the oil, and - later - I found #6 (or was it #5?) spark plug not fouled but clearly darker than the others. Many attempts to get the dealer to deal with it resulted in "nothing wrong found" *until* I got them to keep the car overnight. It was a fuel injector that would leak down *hours* after shutoff and empty the fuel rail. After that, Honda did the injector + labor and everything.
Maybe you could get them to put their gauges or whatever on at night and check in the AM (I don't know exactly how the problem was ultimately discovered in my case, I'm just relaying what I remember of what they told me).
That said, I had (otherwise) stellar UOA reports from Honda engines.
I am due to get one for my '13 Odyssey (which I really love).
I'm not sure this is possible with the pressure in a DI fuel system, but I could be wrong. In any event, Honda has made it abundantly (really abundantly) clear that no more diagnosis work will be done absent symptoms.
I had a 2002 Accord with the 3.0L that triggered a high fuel flag with a UOA, also accompanied by a strong fuel smell to the oil, and - later - I found #6 (or was it #5?) spark plug not fouled but clearly darker than the others. Many attempts to get the dealer to deal with it resulted in "nothing wrong found" *until* I got them to keep the car overnight. It was a fuel injector that would leak down *hours* after shutoff and empty the fuel rail. After that, Honda did the injector + labor and everything.
Maybe you could get them to put their gauges or whatever on at night and check in the AM (I don't know exactly how the problem was ultimately discovered in my case, I'm just relaying what I remember of what they told me).
That said, I had (otherwise) stellar UOA reports from Honda engines.
I am due to get one for my '13 Odyssey (which I really love).
I'm not sure this is possible with the pressure in a DI fuel system, but I could be wrong. In any event, Honda has made it abundantly (really abundantly) clear that no more diagnosis work will be done absent symptoms.
Originally Posted By: Danh
Given the limits on Polaris' method (I.e. No granularity over 5%), we're really not sure when, if ever, dilution reaches an equilibrium. But you are correct that viscosity isn't rapidly collpapsing. Nonetheless, I wouldn't want to see the outcome if I followed the MM to a 12,000 mile OCI.
My supposition that the dilution was not cumulative was based on the viscosity results, they do not seem to continually worsen so regardless of the inability of the lab to measure it above 5% its effect on viscosity was not cumulative or linear thus my statement.
Given the limits on Polaris' method (I.e. No granularity over 5%), we're really not sure when, if ever, dilution reaches an equilibrium. But you are correct that viscosity isn't rapidly collpapsing. Nonetheless, I wouldn't want to see the outcome if I followed the MM to a 12,000 mile OCI.
My supposition that the dilution was not cumulative was based on the viscosity results, they do not seem to continually worsen so regardless of the inability of the lab to measure it above 5% its effect on viscosity was not cumulative or linear thus my statement.
There goes my desire for one of Honda's new 'Earth Dream' engines. I thought Honda would have learned from the DI early adopters.
I would go to 0w30, premium gas helps avoid dumping fuel to minimize detonation, seams to help in a lot of DI engines. What's the compression ratio on this new engine?
I would go to 0w30, premium gas helps avoid dumping fuel to minimize detonation, seams to help in a lot of DI engines. What's the compression ratio on this new engine?
Run 0w30 synthetic oil. Change a oil filter halfway and top off. Its getting cold so run 87 pure gas or 87 top tier too.
Here are a few ideas:
- send a sample to Blackstone and see if they show similar fuel dilution.
- contact Terry Dyson at Dyson analysis for his input.
- try to enjoy Christmas without worrying about this
My 2013 Accord has same engine and I use the same oil you do (my car has manual transmission, though). Check out my UOA's, the others that say these engines all have fuel dilution are wrong.
I just had one at 150,000 miles with no dilution. PM me and Ill send it to you if for any reason its helpful to you.
- send a sample to Blackstone and see if they show similar fuel dilution.
- contact Terry Dyson at Dyson analysis for his input.
- try to enjoy Christmas without worrying about this
My 2013 Accord has same engine and I use the same oil you do (my car has manual transmission, though). Check out my UOA's, the others that say these engines all have fuel dilution are wrong.
I just had one at 150,000 miles with no dilution. PM me and Ill send it to you if for any reason its helpful to you.
Originally Posted By: oily boyd
Here are a few ideas:
- send a sample to Blackstone and see if they show similar fuel dilution.
- contact Terry Dyson at Dyson analysis for his input.
- try to enjoy Christmas without worrying about this
My 2013 Accord has same engine and I use the same oil you do (my car has manual transmission, though). Check out my UOA's, the others that say these engines all have fuel dilution are wrong.
I just had one at 150,000 miles with no dilution. PM me and Ill send it to you if for any reason its helpful to you.
Good suggestions, thanks. Not sure how to contact Terry Dyson but will check around. Now that cold weather has arrived I have the dreaded increasing crankcase level, but there's no sense going back to Honda for help...
I think the CVT is part of the problem: it keeps revs so low it has to be on the verge of preignition for much of its operating life. Rarely see revs over 2,000 around town or during typical Interstate cruising. I imagine you rev your 6 speed a bit higher and it's geared differently for cruising as well.
Here are a few ideas:
- send a sample to Blackstone and see if they show similar fuel dilution.
- contact Terry Dyson at Dyson analysis for his input.
- try to enjoy Christmas without worrying about this
My 2013 Accord has same engine and I use the same oil you do (my car has manual transmission, though). Check out my UOA's, the others that say these engines all have fuel dilution are wrong.
I just had one at 150,000 miles with no dilution. PM me and Ill send it to you if for any reason its helpful to you.
Good suggestions, thanks. Not sure how to contact Terry Dyson but will check around. Now that cold weather has arrived I have the dreaded increasing crankcase level, but there's no sense going back to Honda for help...
I think the CVT is part of the problem: it keeps revs so low it has to be on the verge of preignition for much of its operating life. Rarely see revs over 2,000 around town or during typical Interstate cruising. I imagine you rev your 6 speed a bit higher and it's geared differently for cruising as well.
Originally Posted By: Danh
I think the CVT is part of the problem: it keeps revs so low it has to be on the verge of preignition for much of its operating life. Rarely see revs over 2,000 around town or during typical Interstate cruising. I imagine you rev your 6 speed a bit higher and it's geared differently for cruising as well.
I think thats a lot of it. When manuals and CVTs/Autos have different UOAs and all other variables are pretty close, this is going to become more common.
I think the CVT is part of the problem: it keeps revs so low it has to be on the verge of preignition for much of its operating life. Rarely see revs over 2,000 around town or during typical Interstate cruising. I imagine you rev your 6 speed a bit higher and it's geared differently for cruising as well.
I think thats a lot of it. When manuals and CVTs/Autos have different UOAs and all other variables are pretty close, this is going to become more common.
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