2010 TDI PD (BXE) - Fuchs TITAN GT1 PRO C-3 5W-30

[zak14]

I was curious how does the virgin oil changes just after it’s poured into the engine, so I made UOA after only 86 km. Here it is:

TBN dropped a bit, but what seems to be most interesting is iron level. Although I drained as much previous oil as I could and removed the remaining oil from filter chassis, there is still significant level of residual iron left in the pan. This may be possible explanation of ‘increased engine wear right after oil change phenomenon / iron spike’ mentioned in this thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/20-wt-vs-30-wt-iron-wear-levels-from-bitog-uoas.159694/
The engine is only 13 000 km and is still runnig in.
For comparison, you can check the VOA of this oil here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/fuchs-titan-gt1-pro-c-3-5w-30-xtl-technology.164553/

 

[m37charlie]

Watch the TBN carefully, especially if the engine has EGR.
I have not had good experience with ACEA C3 oil, I am now using ACEA E6 oil (Delvac 1 LE 5W30) in our BMW X5 35d.

Charlie

 

[chubbs1]

Well I would call this an amazing waste in most cases, but you would have had an astronomical amount of iron in the oil if left in for a recommended OCI. (that is if it tracked)

What are you going to run from here on out?

 

[zak14]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Watch the TBN carefully, especially if the engine has EGR.
I have not had good experience with ACEA C3 oil, I am now using ACEA E6 oil (Delvac 1 LE 5W30) in our BMW X5 35d.
Charlie

I don't know any ACEA E6 VW 507 compliant oil, but I bet the one I use will have satisfactory TBN as long as at least 15 000 km.


Originally Posted By: chubbs1
What are you going to run from here on out?

I'm not going to do anything at all - just wait and watch - TBN and metal levels. I assume it's nothing extraordinary for VW 1.9 TDI PD engine which is quite new (~8200 miles on engine).

 

[m37charlie]

Originally Posted By: zak14
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Watch the TBN carefully, especially if the engine has EGR.
I have not had good experience with ACEA C3 oil, I am now using ACEA E6 oil (Delvac 1 LE 5W30) in our BMW X5 35d.
Charlie

I don't know any ACEA E6 VW 507 compliant oil, but I bet the one I use will have satisfactory TBN as long as at least 15 000 km.


Originally Posted By: chubbs1
What are you going to run from here on out?

I'm not going to do anything at all - just wait and watch - TBN and metal levels. I assume it's nothing extraordinary for VW 1.9 TDI PD engine which is quite new (~8200 miles on engine).


Correct, there is no ACEA E6 oil that is 507 compliant. However, on the more general subject of C3 oils and emission controlled diesels. Mercedes allows use of E6 oils in car type engines designed for 229.51 (C3) oils. Since I was having a TBN problem probably causing a wear issue, I "extrapolated" and decided to try a high TBN (12.6) E6 oil.
Whether your TBN gets used up depends on a number of factors:
fuel economy, oil sump size, use of make-up oil, length of OCI, and Poland's compliance with 10 ppm sulfur diesel.
In my case, with 15ppm fuel, 11L/100km (city driving, big heavy SUV), 9L sump, no makeup oil, 16000km OCI, it got way over used up.

Charlie

 

[Brons2]

Now there's something you don't see on BITOG every day, a UOA from a Skoda! Wish VW sold them here.

 

[wlyszkow]

I'm afraid the engine was still dirty after previous OCI if working fine now. Another UOA is needed to be sure and check it in few kkm.

 

[zak14]

Here’s another UOA of the same Fuchs G1 Pro C3 5w30 XTL I sampled first at 86 km on oil only.

Oil in use for 5517 km / 3427,48 miles:
11 % on motorways with avg. speed ~ 87 mph
21 % country driving with avg. speed ~ 44 mph
68% city driving with avg. speed ~ 17,4 mph

Avg. fuel consumption for the 3427,48 miles distance: 31,2 mpg.

Iron is high, but I think it does not exceed the average for VW 1.9L PD engines with only 11 378 miles on unit (correct me if I’m wrong).
I had to add almost 1,5 qt, but about 0,3 qt went out in one day through the failed gasket between oil inlet and the valve cover (replaced the next day after it failed), so the ‘natural’ consumption is about 1,2 qt.



Interesting thing is that there’s more Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus and Zinc now then at the beginning of the OCI. I have a hypothesis why is it so, but I’m also curious what you guys think about it ?

 

[zak14]

No one has any idea why there’s more Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus and Zinc now then at the beginning of the OCI ?
My first guess is that the NOACK of this oil may be high, volatile fractions evaportate and more additives comes from make up oil. If the oil was burned, additives should be burned as well I think.
Another guess: Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus and Zinc are fuel additives that came from combustion chamber.

 

[JAG]

I think the difference is due to lab measurement variations. Even in very long oil change intervals, I've never seen large increases in any additive element concentrations.

 

[zak14]

Originally Posted By: JAG
I think the difference is due to lab measurement variations. Even in very long oil change intervals, I've never seen large increases in any additive element concentrations.

I think you’re right. Because the values were so strange and I asked them to verify it - Blackstone re-runed spectral examination.
Differences between 2 runs were between 4,06% and 12,2%.
Differences, except Boron, between 1st. UOA and average of 2 runs in 2nd. UOA are from 4,51% up to 13,48%. It seems that only Boron, with 35,48% difference, significantly changed.
It also means to me, that while interpreting UOAs from Blackstone I should keep in mind, that variation between two runs of spectral examination may be ~13-14 %.
Here’s a table summarizing the numbers given above:

 

[m37charlie]

If you look at the TBN/TAN correlation on the used oil analysis (2nd UOA), you can see that while TBN is 3.8, TAN is up to 3.5.
Some analysts and other "experts" say that when TAN is + to or > than TBN, the oil's alkalinity and acid corrosion inhibition is used up and the oil should be changed.
This is why I made the point about ACEA C3 oils starting with such low TBNs. In my situation, after about 10000 mi the TBN was 1.5, the TAN 4.8 and the analyst felt it was a seriously bad situation.
I am in the midst of an experiment, running a E6 oil with TBN 12.6 (instead of 6.4 for the prior C3 oil) about 13000 mi, then I will drain it and do a UOA.

Charlie

 

[zak14]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Some analysts and other "experts" say that when TAN is + to or > than TBN, the oil's alkalinity and acid corrosion inhibition is used up and the oil should be changed.
Charlie

I also heard such opinions, but never verified it. If it was universal truth, VW 507 would not prevent the corrosion after ~1/3 of recommended OCI.

 

[Brons2]

Originally Posted By: zak14
I assume it's nothing extraordinary for VW 1.9 TDI PD engine which is quite new (~8200 miles on engine).


The VW group was still selling PD diesels as late as 2010? I thought they had switched to common-rail. Maybe not on the Skodas as they are meant to be lower cost than VW itself?

 

[zak14]

Originally Posted By: Brons2
The VW group was still selling PD diesels as late as 2010? I thought they had switched to common-rail. Maybe not on the Skodas as they are meant to be lower cost than VW itself?

2010 was the last year PD (Euro IV) diesels were manufactured to be sold in Europe. You could buy last MY10 in 2011, and I did so, because every single workshop here in Poland can fix it, parts are inexpensive, and construction is reliable. It has also better power / torque characteristics then equivalent 105 hp CR VW engine. You can easily add 20-25 hp, just after warranty period. Every single problem (and the solution) with this engine is well described on Skoda Octavia Owners Club internet forum, as well as VCDS diagnostics. Since I used to have Ford Mondeo 2.5 L that no workshop could diagnose and I spent hundreds of hours diagnosing and fixing it, this time I decided to buy proven and well recognized unit.

 

[zak14]

Originally Posted By: JAG
I think the difference is due to lab measurement variations. Even in very long oil change intervals, I've never seen large increases in any additive element concentrations.

I exchanged few e-mails with Blackstone.
According to information they gave me - wear metals are held to within 5% of their check standards while most other elements should be within 10% to 15%, but, according to them it is unusual that most additives were higher in the second sample than the first, and they are wondering if the make-up oil affected this somehow.