2008 BMW M3, BMW TwinPower Turbo 10W-60, 6417 mi

[d00df00d]

Previous UOA here.

160529 miles on the engine at the time of this sample.

For about three months right at the beginning of the OCI, the car ran only a few times, only for moments at a time, and only to move in and out of a garage, occasionally without its O2 sensors. Also, I discovered a failing ignition coil just after this oil change, so presumably it wasn't doing its best work near the end of this OCI. Not sure if either of those is noteworthy WRT wear but they're all I could think of that happened during this OCI other than normal driving.

Trying not to think anything of the still-low-but-higher-than-normal aluminum number...

I did this oil change when the oil was coming up on 1L low, so the "lube added" field underestimates oil consumption. It was closer to 1L/1600 mi on this OCI.

Not sure why the lab is still flagging Ti here. I asked them to stop because Ti s clearly an additive; sadly for my ego but fortunately for my wallet, there's no Ti in this engine AFAIK.



Wear Metals

Iron - 6
Chromium - 0
Nickel - 0
Aluminum - 7
Copper - 3
Lead - 0
Tin - 1
Cadmium - 0
Silver - 0
Vanadium - 0

Particle Quantifier (PQ) Index - 12


Contaminant Metals

Silicon - 3
Sodium - 2
Potassium - 2


Multi-Source Metals

Titanium - 48
Molybdenum - 187
Antimony - 0
Manganese - 0
Lithium - 0
Boron - 32


Additive Metals

Magnesium - 17
Calcium - 3181
Barium - 0
Phosphorus - 910
Zinc - 1005


Other Contaminants

Fuel Dilution - 1.8% (GC)
Soot - <0.1%
Water - <0.1% (FTIR)

Fluid Properties

Viscosity @ 100º C - 19.4 cSt
TBN - 4.74
Oxidation - 14
Nitration - 11

 

[edyvw]

Isn't lead and copper indicative of rod-bearing failure on S65?

 

[Oliveoil2]

You added 3 liters of oil during the oci?

 

[FZ1]

Is what it is, but looks good ,otherwise.

 

[fantastic]

According the the numbers it doesn't look bad. It does use some oil as you already know. Copper is low & Lead nonexistent. Keep er' at at least to the minimum & motor on.

 

[930.engineering]

.
wear metals - excellent, additive metals - a bit special for Castrol (Mo ~190, B ~30, Ti ~45 ppm)
.

 

[d00df00d]

Isn't lead and copper indicative of rod-bearing failure on S65?

With the original bearings, yes. There have been false negatives, but the false positive rate is negligible AFAICT.

Starting sometime in 2010 (I forget when), BMW started phasing in lead-free bearings in the S65. To make a long, complicated, and contentious story short, the updated bearings don't seem to wear excessively like the original leaded ones ones do.

Almost immediately after buying my car (82k miles on it at the time), I had the original rod bearings swapped to the updated lead-free BMW bearings.

The only other source of lead and copper I'm aware of would be the main bearings. There have been S65s with failed mains, but the rate seems to be negligible.

 

[d00df00d]

You added 3 liters of oil during the oci?

Only because I changed it not long before it needed a fourth

 

[edyvw]

With the original bearings, yes. There have been false negatives, but the false positive rate is negligible AFAICT.

Starting sometime in 2010 (I forget when), BMW started phasing in lead-free bearings in the S65. To make a long, complicated, and contentious story short, the updated bearings don't seem to wear excessively like the original leaded ones ones do.

Almost immediately after buying my car (82k miles on it at the time), I had the original rod bearings swapped to the updated lead-free BMW bearings.

The only other source of lead and copper I'm aware of would be the main bearings. There have been S65s with failed mains, but the rate seems to be negligible.

Yeah, now I remember they changed the bearings at one point. I don;t think there is anything worrisome in that report, unless next one has double aluminium.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Hello, former RX8 brother! If this were mine, I wouldn't want to see that AL# go up either. Maybe due to details you noted, and might settle down again. I hope so!

This engine is different, as you well know, and any bearing "tell" is saying something, that might not matter at all in other engines. 80k on your freshened bearings is decent. If the next report doesn't settle back, might be time for a look-see in my opinion.

I love these engines, BTW. One of these is in my future fo sho.

 

[edyvw]

Hello, former RX8 brother! If this were mine, I wouldn't want to see that AL# go up either. Maybe due to details you noted, and might settle down again. I hope so!

This engine is different, as you well know, and any bearing "tell" is saying something, that might not matter at all in other engines. 80k on your freshened bearings is decent. If the next report doesn't settle back, might be time for a look-see in my opinion.

I love these engines, BTW. One of these is in my future fo sho.

E90 overall, the way it is built, is worth of occasional rod bearing exchange on that engine .
I didn’t fallow closely aftermarket solutions, but what happened with Clevite bearings?

 

[KEVINK0000]

Agree on e90. Great chassis and body. Looks nicer than newer ones in my opinion too.

Except some of the plastic and coatings. GummiFruit door handles and OFHG , to go please.

I think there was some experimentation with chemistry that didn’t go well. Like the interior adhesives in my e34.

 

[edyvw]

Agree on e90. Great chassis and body. Looks nicer than newer ones in my opinion too.

Except some of the plastic and coatings. GummiFruit door handles and OFHG , to go please.

I think there was some experimentation with chemistry that didn’t go well. Like the interior adhesives in my e34.

The OFHG, I think, is a consequence of really, really high engine temperatures.
I installed N55 radiator type oil cooler and only reason why I had to change valve cover gasket at 135k was that I broke right brake line when upgrading to Brembo brakes. I changed OFHG at 105K when installing OFH that can fit thermostat for oil cooler, and will see. No signs of leak 40k later. I am really interested to see if keeping oil temperature in check actually makes these gaskets last longer.

 

[d00df00d]

E90 overall, the way it is built, is worth of occasional rod bearing exchange on that engine .

Last M3 with hydraulic power steering and a naturally aspirated engine, likely ever. Arguable whether it's the best powertrain, but it's definitely the best steering, and that doesn't matter, I don't know what does. Completely agree it's worth preserving.

I didn’t fallow closely aftermarket solutions, but what happened with Clevite bearings?

I'm assuming you mean the BE Bearings offering, which is made by Clevite, yeah?

The whole idea behind them was always suspect. Yes, the S85 and S65 have had rod bearing issues, but... a couple of guys fixed that by adhering to a decades-old industry standard rule of thumb about bearing clearance, which the engineers at BMW M either didn't know or pointlessly ignored? Being very polite, that seems like a stretch.

Either way, what little evidence there is suggests that the aftermarket rod bearings with extra clearance tend to hold up quite well until the main bearings let go. As in, the rod bearings look absolutely cherry until the engine grenades due to main bearing failure.

The problem is, of the very few publicized instances of failed main bearings, it feels like a disproportionate number have aftermarket rod bearings, and no one seems to be collecting stats on main bearing failure rates with OE vs. aftermarket rod bearings. If there were even a 1% chance that adding rod bearing clearance could shorten the life of the mains (e.g. by decreasing oil pressure in some regimes), that'd be absolutely unacceptable IMO.

Between that, the fact that the updated BMW bearings seem to be doing just fine, and the fact that a lot of BE's narrative and numbers are now in serious doubt (e.g. https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/thre...d-information-with-source-information.267548/), I think it's safe to say BE Bearings are.... fine, though pointless at best.

 

[edyvw]

Last M3 with hydraulic power steering and a naturally aspirated engine, likely ever. Arguable whether it's the best powertrain, but it's definitely the best steering, and that doesn't matter, I don't know what does. Completely agree it's worth preserving.


I'm assuming you mean the BE Bearings offering, which is made by Clevite, yeah?

The whole idea behind them was always suspect. Yes, the S85 and S65 have had rod bearing issues, but... a couple of guys fixed that by adhering to a decades-old industry standard rule of thumb about bearing clearance, which the engineers at BMW M either didn't know or pointlessly ignored? Being very polite, that seems like a stretch.

Either way, what little evidence there is suggests that the aftermarket rod bearings with extra clearance tend to hold up quite well until the main bearings let go. As in, the rod bearings look absolutely cherry until the engine grenades due to main bearing failure.

The problem is, of the very few publicized instances of failed main bearings, it feels like a disproportionate number have aftermarket rod bearings, and no one seems to be collecting stats on main bearing failure rates with OE vs. aftermarket rod bearings. If there were even a 1% chance that adding rod bearing clearance could shorten the life of the mains (e.g. by decreasing oil pressure in some regimes), that'd be absolutely unacceptable IMO.

Between that, the fact that the updated BMW bearings seem to be doing just fine, and the fact that a lot of BE's narrative and numbers are now in serious doubt (e.g. https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/thre...d-information-with-source-information.267548/), I think it's safe to say BE Bearings are.... fine, though pointless at best.

Thanx!
I didn’t follow what happened with that, but what you explained makes sense.
It is often case with some companies that claim how engineers of BMW or similar company didn’t figure out basic thing, so here we are to correct them.

 

[d00df00d]

Thanx!
I didn’t follow what happened with that, but what you explained makes sense.
It is often case with some companies that claim how engineers of BMW or similar company didn’t figure out basic thing, so here we are to correct them.

Yep.

What I mentioned is barely even the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more to it. But the bottom line is very much in line with your last sentence. You just have to wade through an inordinate amount of "data" to get there.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Yep.

What I mentioned is barely even the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more to it. But the bottom line is very much in line with your last sentence. You just have to wade through an inordinate amount of "data" to get there.

Your circles ever seen or spoke about this? It's from Driven Racing oils.

 

[d00df00d]

Your circles ever seen or spoke about this? It's from Driven Racing oils.

View attachment 219626

Interesting. I haven’t seen it but wouldn’t be surprised.

 

[chris719]

Isn't lead and copper indicative of rod-bearing failure on S65?

Pre 2010, in theory. At some point in 2010 they switched to the lead-free bearings. Still, there have been lots of good VOAs on Bimmerpost and then the engine spins a bearing anyway. I don't trust VOA alone for S65/S85.

 

[chris719]

Either way, what little evidence there is suggests that the aftermarket rod bearings with extra clearance tend to hold up quite well until the main bearings let go. As in, the rod bearings look absolutely cherry until the engine grenades due to main bearing failure.

Very hard to distinguish correlation vs causation. My personal opinion is that the mains are also problematic in these engines and the engines that have their bearings replaced are showing main bearing issues because they are not dying earlier, as they would have normally, due to the rod bearings. The German H2 Motors guys on YouTube have torn down several S85 and seen bad looking main bearings on engines without aftermarket rod bearings.