2008 Aston Martin V8 Vantage oil question

[Pitbull]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
The Aston Martin may be art.. on the outside.
The mechanics of the internal combustion engine are no different from the Hyundai parked next to it.

When the "Euro-spec" 10W-60 oils shear down to a 40 weight... why not use a stay-in-grade 40 weight to begin with?
The only reason may be: warranty.

The redline of an engine has little to do with the need for thick "racing" oils.
My S2000 / F20C2 redlines at 9000 rpm and the factory recommended oil is dino 10W-30.
In high revving engines I think its better to have thinner oils to increase oil flow at high revs, thick oil will not make it past the pump bypass valve at higher revs (= higher pressure).

Street engines requiring "racing oils" is just a load of blah blah blah

in my book.

It is a hand built V8 with a 7500 rpm redline and has dry sump with 2 oil pumps. Figure the guys that built it should know the best oil for the engine. Who knows but since I am not an expert I wanted to make sure I was running the correct oil, I understand the 5w30 Castrol Syntec did not hurt it for the 400 miles it was in the engine but why take a chance with a $140,000 car?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Pitbull


Figure the guys that built it should know the best oil for the engine. Who knows but since I am not an expert I wanted to make sure I was running the correct oil, I understand the 5w30 Castrol Syntec did not hurt it for the 400 miles it was in the engine but why take a chance with a $140,000 car?

Exactly.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Pitbull
Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
The Aston Martin may be art.. on the outside.
The mechanics of the internal combustion engine are no different from the Hyundai parked next to it.

When the "Euro-spec" 10W-60 oils shear down to a 40 weight... why not use a stay-in-grade 40 weight to begin with?
The only reason may be: warranty.

The redline of an engine has little to do with the need for thick "racing" oils.
My S2000 / F20C2 redlines at 9000 rpm and the factory recommended oil is dino 10W-30.
In high revving engines I think its better to have thinner oils to increase oil flow at high revs, thick oil will not make it past the pump bypass valve at higher revs (= higher pressure).

Street engines requiring "racing oils" is just a load of blah blah blah

in my book.

It is a hand built V8 with a 7500 rpm redline and has dry sump with 2 oil pumps. Figure the guys that built it should know the best oil for the engine. Who knows but since I am not an expert I wanted to make sure I was running the correct oil, I understand the 5w30 Castrol Syntec did not hurt it for the 400 miles it was in the engine but why take a chance with a $140,000 car?


Agreed. I was scared to death to stray from the factory recommendation in my $40,000 car. Can't imagine something that costs $100,000 more.

There are soooo many variables here. You can't say "well 5w-30 works in the Vette so it will work in the AM because they're both V8s". So many differences, dry sump vs wet sump, oil pumps, clearances, journal diameter and width differences, the power band, where the torque is made, and probably 100 more.

I think you were smart by going with the thicker oil. It may be overkill for street cruising but if and when you get the itch to take it to redline and run it hard you know you'll be protected.

 

[SpitfireS]

What if the 10W-60 in the Aston Martin shears down into the 40 weight range?
Those oils have proven (allthough there aren't that many UOA's done and posted on BITOG) to shear down.
Would one only feel protected the first 1500 miles?

What is the factory recommended oil change interval?
Is there a severe and normal OCI schedule?
What is the difference between them?

Would I take a gamble with a $140k car?
Is using a 40 weight a gamble just because it isn't what the manual says?
Is taking a car like that to a track a gamble?

At the end of the day its your car and YOU decide what oil to use.
No matter what anyone here says

Lets hope you (the OP) have been infected with the BITOG-bug:
you start having UOA's done on this 10W-60 and post the results.

 

[Win]

Do you have the V8 or the V12?

If you have the V8, AFAIK, Ford built up that engine for Aston from the already existing Jaguar AJ-V8, and running it with 5/30 is not going to hurt it - it's recommended for the AJ-V8 by Jaguar. Ford didn't set out to reinvent the wheel when Jaguar already had a state of the art V8 in the family.

That said, while on Aston's dime, I would want they recommend installed in the engine. If the addendum, TSB, change document, whatever, actually exists, it should be easy enough for the dealer to produce it and I would keep a copy for my records.

I would want the document referenced when the Aston tech signs off your service logbook that stays with the car.

Even if you have the V12, I would still go with the thinner oil if Aston has written documentation allowing it. As I said, my V12 is no longer a state of the art engine, but it runs noticably cooler on 10/30 than it did on 15/50. My Jaguar V12 even allows for 5/20 over certain temperature ranges.

edit: You're probably not going to put enough miles on a car like that to cause any serious wear regardless of the oil that's in the sump. I've had my Xj12 for fifteen years and it has barely 70K miles on it.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Win
Do you have the V8 or the V12?

If you have the V8, AFAIK, Ford built up that engine for Aston from the already existing Jaguar AJ-V8, and running it with 5/30 is not going to hurt it - it's recommended for the AJ-V8 by Jaguar. Ford didn't set out to reinvent the wheel when Jaguar already had a state of the art V8 in the family.

That said, while on Aston's dime, I would want they recommend installed in the engine. If the addendum, TSB, change document, whatever, actually exists, it should be easy enough for the dealer to produce it and I would keep a copy for my records.

I would want the document referenced when the Aston tech signs off your service logbook that stays with the car.

Even if you have the V12, I would still go with the thinner oil if Aston has written documentation allowing it. As I said, my V12 is no longer a state of the art engine, but it runs noticably cooler on 10/30 than it did on 15/50. My Jaguar V12 even allows for 5/20 over certain temperature ranges.

edit: You're probably not going to put enough miles on a car like that to cause any serious wear regardless of the oil that's in the sump. I've had my Xj12 for fifteen years and it has barely 70K miles on it.


What runs cooler? Oil? Water?

Even if the engine is based off of an existing Ford/Jaguar design, all they need to do is change one spec like the oil pump, rod or main clearances, power level, anything, and the thinner oil will hurt it.

Unless this is the identical engine used in the Jag with absolutely no changes, the same power level, and driven easy, why would you risk your $140,000 investment? For the 1% better fuel economy? I think some are not looking at the big picture here. With the CAFE push to run thinner oils, I'm sure AM didn't recommend a 60wt just for fun.

 

[Pitbull]

Service interval on Aston is one year and or 10,000 miles.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Pitbull
Service interval on Aston is one year and or 10,000 miles.


Identical to the AJ-V8.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Win
Originally Posted By: Pitbull
Service interval on Aston is one year and or 10,000 miles.


Identical to the AJ-V8.


Which means nothing in relation to this discussion.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
The Aston Martin may be art.. on the outside.
The mechanics of the internal combustion engine are no different from the Hyundai parked next to it.

You got a very measured response from Pitbull on this, I'd say. The differences are big enough that the comparison is largely meaningless.


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
When the "Euro-spec" 10W-60 oils shear down to a 40 weight... why not use a stay-in-grade 40 weight to begin with?

Sometimes it shears, sometimes it doesn't. If it sheared every time, Castrol would design it differently or every single BMW M car and all those Aston Martins would use a different oil.


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
The redline of an engine has little to do with the need for thick "racing" oils.

Thick, no. Racing, yes.


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
My S2000 / F20C2 redlines at 9000 rpm and the factory recommended oil is dino 10W-30.

Honda.


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
Street engines requiring "racing oils" is just a load of blah blah blah

in my book.

Your book being a Honda owner's manual?

Your car was specifically designed to be easy on oil, as was the Hyundai you brought up. Do you really think the Aston was, too?

 

[SpitfireS]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
The Aston Martin may be art.. on the outside.
The mechanics of the internal combustion engine are no different from the Hyundai parked next to it.

You got a very measured response from Pitbull on this, I'd say. The differences are big enough that the comparison is largely meaningless.
Is that because it has a dry sump or because its hand build?
Either way I don't think this V8 works different than any other engine.


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
When the "Euro-spec" 10W-60 oils shear down to a 40 weight... why not use a stay-in-grade 40 weight to begin with?

Sometimes it shears, sometimes it doesn't. If it sheared every time, Castrol would design it differently or every single BMW M car and all those Aston Martins would use a different oil.
Can you post links to UOA's of the 10W-60 used in BMW-M engines?

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
The redline of an engine has little to do with the need for thick "racing" oils.

Thick, no. Racing, yes.
What are the racing ingredients in Castrol 10W-60?


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
My S2000 / F20C2 redlines at 9000 rpm and the factory recommended oil is dino 10W-30.

Honda.
Meaning?

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
Street engines requiring "racing oils" is just a load of blah blah blah

in my book.

Your book being a Honda owner's manual?

You have a point

Your car was specifically designed to be easy on oil, as was the Hyundai you brought up. Do you really think the Aston was, too?
The F20 was designed with low friction - FRM cylinder walls, roller cam followers, ect - in mind to reach the 9000 rpm on a regular basis, as an off-the-shelf engine.
Why would anyone design an engine that is hard on oil?


Anyway..
I'm here for the discussion about the use of thick "racing" oils and engines that "need" them as per manufacturer's recommendation.
Not to talk down on Aston Martin (and Hyundai

) or their owners

I wish I had one!
An Aston Martin that is.

 

[tonycarguy]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS

When the "Euro-spec" 10W-60 oils shear down to a 40 weight... why not use a stay-in-grade 40 weight to begin with?
The only reason may be: warranty.


Which 40 weights stay 40?

 

[sprintman]

Redline?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
Is that because it has a dry sump or because its hand build?
Either way I don't think this V8 works different than any other engine.

They are both internal combustion piston engines. That's about it. You can't say they "work the same" on that basis alone.

A Hyundai engine will be designed for fuel economy, low emissions, and low production cost, and to use low cost oils. They place very little mechanical and chemical stress on their oil. The Aston engine, on the other hand, will make twice the power and be optimized for low internal friction, which means looser piston rings and such. That means more mechanical stress on the oil, and more potential for chemical contamination (fuel etc.).


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
Can you post links to UOA's of the 10W-60 used in BMW-M engines?

In a Z4 M Coupe, 3820 miles:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1109834

In a highly modded, endurance race driven '99 M3, 5,000 miles:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=895091

In an '01 M Roadster, 8299 miles:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:RUSE...6d%3D1155053174

There is some shear, but not much; the oil starts on the low end of the 60 weight range, and in these reports it seems to be mid-to-high 50 (in SUS, not cSt). Still nowhere near a 40 weight.


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
What are the racing ingredients in Castrol 10W-60?

You tell me. You're the one who called it a "thick 'racing' oil".

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
My S2000 / F20C2 redlines at 9000 rpm and the factory recommended oil is dino 10W-30.

Honda.
Meaning?

It was specifically designed to use inexpensive oil, among all the other factors. One can assume its oil temps and such were optimized accordingly.


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
Why would anyone design an engine that is hard on oil?

For the same reason they would design an engine with poor fuel economy: in the pursuit of other goals that are more important than low operating costs to the car's buyers.

By the way, I'm assuming we're on the same page about this -- i.e. that stress on the oil is merely a lower priority in an Aston than in a Hyundai -- and that you don't actually believe the Aston was specifically designed to rip apart oil. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Pitbull]

Good info. question on my Aston, when I had BMW install the BMW Castrol Edge 10W60 I did not have a new oil filter to install (Oil filter only had 400 miles on it) but because of this about 1 liter of the old Castrol Syntec 5W30 (meaning 5W30 with 400 miles on it) was left in the car. That means about 10 liters of 10W60 and 1 liter of 5W30 both Castrol and both synthetic. Any porblem seen with this???

 

[Quattro Pete]

You'll be fine.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
You'll be fine.

Agreed.

 

[SpitfireS]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The Aston engine, on the other hand, will make twice the power and be optimized for low internal friction, which means looser piston rings and such. That means more mechanical stress on the oil, and more potential for chemical contamination (fuel etc.)
By the way, I'm assuming we're on the same page about this -- i.e. that stress on the oil is merely a lower priority in an Aston than in a Hyundai -- and that you don't actually believe the Aston was specifically designed to rip apart oil.

Specifically designd to rip apart oil: no.
OTOH: one specific design parameter (output) created an oil eating monster!

And the need for 10W-60 to keep it alive.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
You tell me. You're the one who called it a "thick 'racing' oil".

IMO the consensus here-anywhere is that a 60 weight is a thick oil.
Castrol themselfs call it Castrol Edge Sport 10W-60
Allright: not Racing.
That said, here's a quote from Castrol Edge Sport 10W-60 Tech Info (in Dutch)
Quote:
Exclusieve "Race proven power" en prestaties voor alle opgevoerde competitie motoren.

This translates to: Exclusive "Race Proven Power" and performance for all tuned competetion engines.


Originally Posted By: d00df00d
It (the F20C2 -

) was specifically designed to use inexpensive oil, among all the other factors.
One can assume its oil temps and such were optimized accordingly.

And still the output is 120 hp/liter.

Using a dino 10W-30!

Thanks for the links to the UOA's!
They did (kinda) change my mind on the Castrol 10W-60 oil.
Now all I need is an Aston Martin to use it in.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
OTOH: one specific design parameter (output) created an oil eating monster!

And the need for 10W-60 to keep it alive.

Not really. It's not one specific design parameter. It's a series of design decisions at every stage of the engine's development.

Basically, think of it this way -- it's an oversimplification but it sort of works in this case: you can either optimize your engine for certain characteristics and then find an oil to suit (Aston), or make the oil one of the factors you design for (Honda).


Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
And still the output is 120 hp/liter.

Using a dino 10W-30!

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.

But yes, it is certainly an achievement.

 

[Pitbull]

Originally Posted By: SpitfireS
The Aston Martin may be art.. on the outside.
The mechanics of the internal combustion engine are no different from the Hyundai parked next to it.


Aston Martin 4.3/4.7
Aston Martin hand-assembles a special version of the AJ-V8 for the V8 Vantage. This unit displaces 4.3 L (4280 cc/261 in³) and produces 380 hp (283 kW) at 7000 rpm and 302 ft·lbf (409 N·m) at 5000 rpm. This engine is unique to Aston Martin and features race-style dry-sump lubrication, which enables it to be mounted low to lower the centre of gravity. The engine is assembled by hand at the AM facility in Cologne, Germany, which also builds the V12 for the DB9 and Vanquish. The cylinder block, cylinder heads, crankshaft, connecting rods, pistons, camshafts, inlet and exhaust manifolds, lubrication system and engine management are all unique to the Aston Martin version.

In May 2008, Aston Martin released a new design that used pressed cylinder liners instead of cast-in liners. This allowed for thinner liners, and a higher capacity of 4.7L for the V8 Vantage. Power output increased to 420bhp (an 11% increase on the previous 4.3L unit) and peak torque to 470Nm (a 15% increase).