2006 VW GTI MkV (2.0T FSI) RLI 5w40

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93
Location
Greensboro, NC
This is the first run of RLI 5w40 oil that is tested. On the next fill currently. Below is Blackstone report Below is my excel sheet of all the samples taken so far. This sample is on the far right, for Cu 70 ppm was removed as the oil org came with 70 ppm Cu. Where could the Cu be coming from, anyone have any good ideas?
 
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Messages
686
Location
PA
RLI uses copper (and antimony IIRC) in it's add package. Good call removing a certain amount. RLI has an impressive dosing of calcium and ZDDP in there....definietly not an SM-rated oil :) You've got 3 high quality synthetics there and all of them were pretty hurting by 7500-8000 miles. I'd say either pick one and use it for 5000 miles at a time, or switch oils. Out of the pack, I like Motul and RLI so far, though I think you need to give RLI another chance in a consecutive run (as it seems you are doing). Nice trending.
 

JAG

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5,320
Location
Fredericksburg, VA
This is a tough one to figure out. Significant fuel dilution is present in all samples, for sure. I don't have it all figured out but I'm thinking that the oils have been run for intervals too long too many times. I think each fresh fill of oil is trying play catch-up. I'd cut back the OCI to no more than 5K miles and see if the wear rates go down. One short one for 3K miles without doing a UOA would help serve as a flush and make a more clear slate for the later oils. Have you looked at the buckets, or whatever those wear-prone parts are called in this engine that saaber1 showed photos of in another thread?
 

agpatel

Thread starter
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93
Location
Greensboro, NC
I will use RLI for 2 more cycles. I know copper is in the add pack, this batch when a VOA was done came to be 70 PPM, thus leaving apx 16 ppm of wear, now this could be in the error zone but was wondering as a wear metal were could copper come from. The Fe is typical for this motor, and yes I am a active member in the VW forums and know of the cam issue and have checked the cam follower which is within limits. I will probably change this out in 4-5k and put another round of RILI in.
 
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1,877
Location
Pacnw
Very interesting UOA! I think this particular engine just throws more iron than the average 2.0FSI as the higher than average iron seems to be independent of oil type. This could be explained if the engine is highly tuned or raced but as I remember this car is not raced? The Cu is an interesting issue. It seems to have elevated somewhere between 30k and 45k miles. Also slight increase in tin and lead on this sample which could well be from Biosyn's chelation of oxidized metals, or perhaps the iron, cu, tin, and lead taken together may indicate bearing wear (just WAG speculation, not saying it is that at all)? Trying to think of things that might have happened after 30k and the only WAG I could speculate on would be PCV failure (can be checked by blowing through PCV) or DV failure. But sounds like OP is on top of those potential weak spots. Great call on running 5k as the database shows only adeere's 99% highway runs can go beyond 5k in this engine IMO. Also good idea IMO to run Biosyn for a couple more runs to see if things settle down a bit. I'll add this one to the database which will bring it up to 42 UOAs. Great spreadsheet btw, that makes it easy to compare/watch trends.
 

agpatel

Thread starter
Messages
93
Location
Greensboro, NC
The oil used before this, Pento, was used after a run of RLI but did not test that oil sample and thus i thought the Cu came from some left over RLI in the system. 16 ppm could be in the +/- range for labs as i have seen some results vary from test to test...The PCV is running fine and the DV is in tact still, was checked not to long ago by myself. Here is the VOA of the oil that was run:
 
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15,056
Location
Canada
I don't like the iron numbers either. A newer engine, well past break in, on an expensive syn, shouldn't show that much iron.
 

agpatel

Thread starter
Messages
93
Location
Greensboro, NC
 Originally Posted By: addyguy
I don't like the iron numbers either. A newer engine, well past break in, on an expensive syn, shouldn't show that much iron.
The FSI motor in general is known for a higher than normal Fe wear count. The main area for concern for the FSI motors is the cam follower as it is known to wear fast and fail in many cars.
 
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1,175
Location
Rhode Island
The dyson analysis at 28K miles is the "tell". Iron was significantly higher than the previous or subsequent sample. This is informative, since Dyson uses Rotrode analysis, which will detect larger particles. The difference between the Blackstone and the Dyson results tells me that there are a significant number of large Fe particles in the oil. My guess is that they are coming from the fuel cam bucket and wrecking havoc with the engine internals. These larger Fe particles are wearing soft bearings, as evidenced by raised levels of Cu, Pb and Sn. In the latest Cu reading, you may or may not have higher Cu. Since you ran RLI before the Pentosynth, there is probably remnants of Cu from the RLI add package. I'd suggest about 3 RLI runs until the chemistry stabilizes, then you can see what the motor is really doing. IF you still have high Fe, I'd have the cam and follower replaced. I'll bet you the numbers come down after that.
 
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3,546
Location
Massachusetts
I don't care how you slice it but I would never ever ever use RLI oil. I don't think I have seen one uoa of this oil with good wear number. Add that to the price point and its a no brainer for me!!! The only reason why people don't call this oil out is because TD endorses it. If the poster had lied and said he used M1, all [censored] would break free.
 
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2,444
Location
Indiana
I dunno if RLI is a good oil or not - it seems decent from the UOAs I've seen. But, at the price, it's not worth it for me personally because I don't do extended drains. In fact, I would never go more than 3K on this VW 2.0 FSI engine. Seems to many of these FSI engine cam follower wear problems come from engines running Syntec 5w-40 at >5000 intervals. It would be really interesting to see what happens with engines that stick to <=3000K intervals using a better oil. I've been running 2-3K drains on mine since new using either Maxlife Synthetic or Synpower MST 5w-40. I'm at 22K now. So far, the internals from looking through the oil cap look spotless. Will probably pull my cam follower at around 30K and see what it looks like.
 
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1,877
Location
Pacnw
Veedub, It seems to me the filter is good for at least 10k and is similar to the one on the boxster that pretty routinely runs 10k+. When you change at 3k intervals or so, are you changing the filter every time? It seems like one could run the filter to 9k and just change the oil every 3k. What u think?
 
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2,444
Location
Indiana
Saaber, I agree about the filter. I think you can leave the filter in there and just change out the oil. btw, do you know if it's possible to get the cam follower inspected and replaced under warranty without triggering a CEL light? Seems like waiting for a light to come on means you risk having big pieces break off causing havoc on engine internals.
 
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1,877
Location
Pacnw
 Originally Posted By: VeeDubb
btw, do you know if it's possible to get the cam follower inspected and replaced under warranty without triggering a CEL light? Seems like waiting for a light to come on means you risk having big pieces break off causing havoc on engine internals.
I would say: 1) Avoid the dealer at all cost unless there is no other choice. The risk that they will do more harm than good is too great. There has been 2 examples in the last month on vortex where dealers have screwed up routine oil changes causing total loss of oil and of course countless other examples of untrained tech. (this dealer incompetent/ignorant techs problem is not unique to VW and I have seen it with several US makes and even Porsche) It took me 20 min or so the first time to remove cam follower and the second time will probably take 10 min. I would recommend inspecting at no less than every 20k based on what I have seen. It is easy to do and if it is worn out when you check it, you can just lube up another one and stick it in there. So worst case scenario you are out 20 min and $50 (plus trip to get new follower). I would weigh that small "cost" vs the potential wait time, haggling, and potential damage of taking it to the dealer. No comparison IMO. 2) Dealers interpret warranty work differently. I believe that dealers who have warranty work as a strong part of their business plan seek to maximize repairs. Tons of examples of cars going in with almost nothing wrong and dealer changes everything under the sun including totally unrelated items. Car dealerships are in biz to make money and the service dept. is the biggest money maker for them. Other dealers seem to not want to try very hard to get VWOA to pay for warranty work (for whatever reason, could be laziness?, could be lack of awareness of income potential from that source?). So it really depends on your dealer's attitude IMO. My view is to avoid dealers irregardless of attitude (although I recognize there has to be some good dealers out there with knowledgeable people and who actually want to help you but they must be very rare).
 
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