I do still have 5 quarts from the same batch, so I can send some in. All of the oil in this UOA came from the same batch, but the next one only has 1/2 quart from it and the other 6 quarts are from the next batch. Will be interesting to see if they corrected the additives.
2006 Ford Freestyle Service Pro 0w-20 5263 miles
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Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Yeah, rarely will a modern engine have traditional lead/copper bearings. The exception may be diesels.
Something interesting I have seen on my engines here, is copper starts showing up when the TAN runs away from TBN.
Exactly my point. Those who portray UOA's as "wear measuring" instruments, crying out that they provide "evidence" of all manner of mechanical conditions and the ability to compare lubricants using these numbers. Why in this thread alone we have one of the most vocal supporters of this fantasy touting that the copper here indicates bearing wear........
Sort of a difficult thing for it to be, this, bearing copper. Since the bearings in this engine don't have any in them.
Supporting the argument that I made to this same individual in another thread regarding the usefulness of UOA's. They do not differentiate between the sources of what they detect. So what comes from a sealer or chelation shows the same as what would come from actual wear. UOA's are "blind" in that sense.
Which is why many of the wild conclusions drawn from these numbers are quite dangerous. Had that remark gone unchecked, would the OP be lead to think he had some sort of serious mechanical condition involving his bearings?
Indeed Blackstone's comments on UOA's aren't the only ones that need to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.
We are all amateurs on here for the most part. One of the few people qualified to be speaking on this topic wrote a bloody article on it, and why we shouldn't be doing exactly what we are doing! If Doug doesn't feel that an inexpensive UOA is any sort of sound basis for determining engine wear.... And went through the trouble of writing an article on it, yet we STILL get this topic popping up all the time, then I am truly at a loss as to why.
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine’s performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results!
*snip*
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
The other parts of the UOA Report will be much more valuable to you – it will tell you about the CONDITION of the lubricant and its suitability for further use. This will enable you to get the maximum safe use from the lubricant saving a valuable resource in the process.
With some knowledge and experience you may be able to determine if you have a fuel or cooling system problem – and you will be able to see the level of potentially damaging contaminants such as silicates, soot and etc. You may be able to monitor the levels of additive depletion too. In a low use engine the TBN (if taken) will seriously indicate if the lubricant is still able to minimise corrosion and its effects and this will help to prevent cam lobe pitting etc.
During the last 50 or so years I have carried out hundreds of UOAs on all sorts of engine configurations – and on transmissions, gearboxes and differentials. These were done in consort with four Major Oil Companies (Shell, Exxon-Mobil, Castrol, Chevron-Caltex), my Employers, my Customers and on my own Fleet and other vehicles. Not once were they ever used to discriminate one lubricant from another on the grounds of wear metal uptake!
I often feel that reading Doug's article should be a prerequisite for posting in this section for the simple reason of understanding the tool before we comment on its use. I think it would work to curb some of the outrageous comments that get made at times.
Yeah, rarely will a modern engine have traditional lead/copper bearings. The exception may be diesels.
Something interesting I have seen on my engines here, is copper starts showing up when the TAN runs away from TBN.
Exactly my point. Those who portray UOA's as "wear measuring" instruments, crying out that they provide "evidence" of all manner of mechanical conditions and the ability to compare lubricants using these numbers. Why in this thread alone we have one of the most vocal supporters of this fantasy touting that the copper here indicates bearing wear........
Sort of a difficult thing for it to be, this, bearing copper. Since the bearings in this engine don't have any in them.
Supporting the argument that I made to this same individual in another thread regarding the usefulness of UOA's. They do not differentiate between the sources of what they detect. So what comes from a sealer or chelation shows the same as what would come from actual wear. UOA's are "blind" in that sense.
Which is why many of the wild conclusions drawn from these numbers are quite dangerous. Had that remark gone unchecked, would the OP be lead to think he had some sort of serious mechanical condition involving his bearings?
Indeed Blackstone's comments on UOA's aren't the only ones that need to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.
We are all amateurs on here for the most part. One of the few people qualified to be speaking on this topic wrote a bloody article on it, and why we shouldn't be doing exactly what we are doing! If Doug doesn't feel that an inexpensive UOA is any sort of sound basis for determining engine wear.... And went through the trouble of writing an article on it, yet we STILL get this topic popping up all the time, then I am truly at a loss as to why.
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine’s performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results!
*snip*
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
The other parts of the UOA Report will be much more valuable to you – it will tell you about the CONDITION of the lubricant and its suitability for further use. This will enable you to get the maximum safe use from the lubricant saving a valuable resource in the process.
With some knowledge and experience you may be able to determine if you have a fuel or cooling system problem – and you will be able to see the level of potentially damaging contaminants such as silicates, soot and etc. You may be able to monitor the levels of additive depletion too. In a low use engine the TBN (if taken) will seriously indicate if the lubricant is still able to minimise corrosion and its effects and this will help to prevent cam lobe pitting etc.
During the last 50 or so years I have carried out hundreds of UOAs on all sorts of engine configurations – and on transmissions, gearboxes and differentials. These were done in consort with four Major Oil Companies (Shell, Exxon-Mobil, Castrol, Chevron-Caltex), my Employers, my Customers and on my own Fleet and other vehicles. Not once were they ever used to discriminate one lubricant from another on the grounds of wear metal uptake!
I often feel that reading Doug's article should be a prerequisite for posting in this section for the simple reason of understanding the tool before we comment on its use. I think it would work to curb some of the outrageous comments that get made at times.
Those engines have Al bearings, so Cu is NOT from the bearings - notice the lack of lead in the sample.
With Al only 3, there is no bearing wear here. I'm not sure what is going on here, but those results are awful. If the vehicle sits a lot, it could be corrosion....but I dunno.
I'd change the oil to an inexpensive 5W-20, do a couple of 3k runs, and see how they look.
With Al only 3, there is no bearing wear here. I'm not sure what is going on here, but those results are awful. If the vehicle sits a lot, it could be corrosion....but I dunno.
I'd change the oil to an inexpensive 5W-20, do a couple of 3k runs, and see how they look.
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
7.6cSt isn't that bad. The engine is meant for 5w-20. I think it might be from the misformulation of the oil., or from the transmission being CVT, which often causes the engine to be revved up fairly high when cold as she gets onto the interstate.
hmmm.....I think that's pretty doubtful. Everyone's driving habits are different, but high revs aren't going to do that, and I really question that anyway. Overall, my Freestyle spends a LOT more time at lower revs than any car I've ever driven. Highway cruising is between 1,400-2K?
The oil looks like it held up really well, but those wear numbers are just weird. If you scour all of the Duratec uoa's, this engine generally shows almost no wear metals in use, so something is up. I wonder if someone ran a 'tune up in a can' or something before she owned it?
Thanks for posting! It'll be interesting to see the next one.
7.6cSt isn't that bad. The engine is meant for 5w-20. I think it might be from the misformulation of the oil., or from the transmission being CVT, which often causes the engine to be revved up fairly high when cold as she gets onto the interstate.
hmmm.....I think that's pretty doubtful. Everyone's driving habits are different, but high revs aren't going to do that, and I really question that anyway. Overall, my Freestyle spends a LOT more time at lower revs than any car I've ever driven. Highway cruising is between 1,400-2K?
The oil looks like it held up really well, but those wear numbers are just weird. If you scour all of the Duratec uoa's, this engine generally shows almost no wear metals in use, so something is up. I wonder if someone ran a 'tune up in a can' or something before she owned it?
Thanks for posting! It'll be interesting to see the next one.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
'm just trying to figure out where the copper is coming from. Unless Ford has used a lot of copper sealant in it....... Just has made me curious
This car doesn't have an oil cooler.
I'm still betting that something was put in the sump or run though the engine prior to ownership and this is the residual effect. That or it's an artifact of the oil's additive pack. Having monitored OP in this car, I will say that the car seems to do well with as thin an oil as is available.
'm just trying to figure out where the copper is coming from. Unless Ford has used a lot of copper sealant in it....... Just has made me curious
This car doesn't have an oil cooler.
I'm still betting that something was put in the sump or run though the engine prior to ownership and this is the residual effect. That or it's an artifact of the oil's additive pack. Having monitored OP in this car, I will say that the car seems to do well with as thin an oil as is available.
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Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
'm just trying to figure out where the copper is coming from. Unless Ford has used a lot of copper sealant in it....... Just has made me curious
This car doesn't have an oil cooler.
I'm still betting that something was put in the sump or run though the engine prior to ownership and this is the residual effect. That or it's an artifact of the oil's additive pack. Having monitored OP in this car, I will say that the car seems to do well with as thin an oil as is available.
Exactly what I was thinking in asking him if he could do a VOA. Maybe they use copper as an additive?
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
'm just trying to figure out where the copper is coming from. Unless Ford has used a lot of copper sealant in it....... Just has made me curious
This car doesn't have an oil cooler.
I'm still betting that something was put in the sump or run though the engine prior to ownership and this is the residual effect. That or it's an artifact of the oil's additive pack. Having monitored OP in this car, I will say that the car seems to do well with as thin an oil as is available.
Exactly what I was thinking in asking him if he could do a VOA. Maybe they use copper as an additive?
I am curious about what you think of the CVT transmission? I have heard of some Freestyle owners who had their CVT fail in as early as 50,000 miles.
Of course Ford only offered this transmission for a couple of years, for this model. Replacement cost for them is over $2 Grand if memory serves me. What kind of maintenance intervals on it?
Of course Ford only offered this transmission for a couple of years, for this model. Replacement cost for them is over $2 Grand if memory serves me. What kind of maintenance intervals on it?
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Copper with no lead? I don't think so.
The engine could be using tri-metal bearings that don't use lead as an overlay. The bearings could be comprised of a steel backing with a layer of copper, nickel, and tin. Tin is a lot more friendly to the environment than lead is. A lot of bearing manufacturers are phasing lead out.
1. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=engine_bearing_materials
2. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=tin_based_engine_bearing_overlays
Copper with no lead? I don't think so.
The engine could be using tri-metal bearings that don't use lead as an overlay. The bearings could be comprised of a steel backing with a layer of copper, nickel, and tin. Tin is a lot more friendly to the environment than lead is. A lot of bearing manufacturers are phasing lead out.
1. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=engine_bearing_materials
2. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=tin_based_engine_bearing_overlays
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Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Copper with no lead? I don't think so.
The engine could be using tri-metal bearings that don't use lead as an overlay. The bearings could be comprised of a steel backing with a layer of copper, nickel, and tin. Tin is a lot more friendly to the environment than lead is. A lot of bearing manufacturers are phasing lead out.
1. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=engine_bearing_materials
2. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=tin_based_engine_bearing_overlays
But this engine doesn't. It uses bi-metal bearings. So your assumption that the copper is coming from the bearings is incorrect. You have just proven your "interpretation" of this UOA to be wholly incorrect. And subsequently supporting my point about their misuse.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Copper with no lead? I don't think so.
The engine could be using tri-metal bearings that don't use lead as an overlay. The bearings could be comprised of a steel backing with a layer of copper, nickel, and tin. Tin is a lot more friendly to the environment than lead is. A lot of bearing manufacturers are phasing lead out.
1. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=engine_bearing_materials
2. http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=tin_based_engine_bearing_overlays
But this engine doesn't. It uses bi-metal bearings. So your assumption that the copper is coming from the bearings is incorrect. You have just proven your "interpretation" of this UOA to be wholly incorrect. And subsequently supporting my point about their misuse.
Originally Posted By: Best F100
I am curious about what you think of the CVT transmission? I have heard of some Freestyle owners who had their CVT fail in as early as 50,000 miles.
Of course Ford only offered this transmission for a couple of years, for this model. Replacement cost for them is over $2 Grand if memory serves me. What kind of maintenance intervals on it?
Well, I'll though my answer out there since I own one. I absolutely love the transmission. I generally dislike automatics, but there are very few cars in this category with manual transmissions. After owning this car I would never buy an automatic that wasn't a CVT (MT is still my first choice). It's always in the right gear, the driveability is really perfect for what this car is, a giant wagon. It feels slightly sluggish off the line, but it's actually quicker than it feels--it's mostly a sensations thing. And if launching from a start is your priority, then you shouldn't be buying a Freestyle anyway... When it matters, say 30-60mph, merging onto the highway or passing, the torque converter locks up immediately and it behaves like a normal car. The the revs drop. Mostly, I love the fact that it has low revs on the highway, is seamless when going over mountain passes and I get ridiculous gas mileage for an AWD car of this size (22-23 mixed, 26-29 hwy).
All transmissions will have some early failures, but the actual numbers are quite small. If you look at all of the independent sources of data, the failure rates are quite low. The most common failure mode is failure of the input shaft. The one issue with the transmission is that parts are hard to find, and techs familiar with the transmission are even harder to find! And a replacement is going to run more than 2K. If mine ever goes and I'm not able to fix it, I'll probably swap in the Aisin 6 speed from the Ford Fivehundred. This also means I'll be converting the car to FWD, which isn't the end of the world. But honestly, I'm not too worried about it. I have 110K on mine right now and it acts like new.
The factory-recommended service intervals are 60K for the full-flow filter, along with a recommended drain and fill. A drain and fill gets out about 6.5 qts out of 10qt total capacity. I'm doing a drain and fill every 25-30K and the filter every 50-60K. It also has a second, conventional 'rock catcher' filter in the pan, but I'm not touching that until the pan starts weeping or 200K, whichever comes first. The car has a drain plug and a fill plug for the transmission, which is awfully nice to have these day.
I am curious about what you think of the CVT transmission? I have heard of some Freestyle owners who had their CVT fail in as early as 50,000 miles.
Of course Ford only offered this transmission for a couple of years, for this model. Replacement cost for them is over $2 Grand if memory serves me. What kind of maintenance intervals on it?
Well, I'll though my answer out there since I own one. I absolutely love the transmission. I generally dislike automatics, but there are very few cars in this category with manual transmissions. After owning this car I would never buy an automatic that wasn't a CVT (MT is still my first choice). It's always in the right gear, the driveability is really perfect for what this car is, a giant wagon. It feels slightly sluggish off the line, but it's actually quicker than it feels--it's mostly a sensations thing. And if launching from a start is your priority, then you shouldn't be buying a Freestyle anyway... When it matters, say 30-60mph, merging onto the highway or passing, the torque converter locks up immediately and it behaves like a normal car. The the revs drop. Mostly, I love the fact that it has low revs on the highway, is seamless when going over mountain passes and I get ridiculous gas mileage for an AWD car of this size (22-23 mixed, 26-29 hwy).
All transmissions will have some early failures, but the actual numbers are quite small. If you look at all of the independent sources of data, the failure rates are quite low. The most common failure mode is failure of the input shaft. The one issue with the transmission is that parts are hard to find, and techs familiar with the transmission are even harder to find! And a replacement is going to run more than 2K. If mine ever goes and I'm not able to fix it, I'll probably swap in the Aisin 6 speed from the Ford Fivehundred. This also means I'll be converting the car to FWD, which isn't the end of the world. But honestly, I'm not too worried about it. I have 110K on mine right now and it acts like new.
The factory-recommended service intervals are 60K for the full-flow filter, along with a recommended drain and fill. A drain and fill gets out about 6.5 qts out of 10qt total capacity. I'm doing a drain and fill every 25-30K and the filter every 50-60K. It also has a second, conventional 'rock catcher' filter in the pan, but I'm not touching that until the pan starts weeping or 200K, whichever comes first. The car has a drain plug and a fill plug for the transmission, which is awfully nice to have these day.
Originally Posted By: Best F100
I am curious about what you think of the CVT transmission? I have heard of some Freestyle owners who had their CVT fail in as early as 50,000 miles.
Of course Ford only offered this transmission for a couple of years, for this model. Replacement cost for them is over $2 Grand if memory serves me. What kind of maintenance intervals on it?
I really like driving her car. The CVT is smooooth, and has plenty of get up and go.
I am curious about what you think of the CVT transmission? I have heard of some Freestyle owners who had their CVT fail in as early as 50,000 miles.
Of course Ford only offered this transmission for a couple of years, for this model. Replacement cost for them is over $2 Grand if memory serves me. What kind of maintenance intervals on it?
I really like driving her car. The CVT is smooooth, and has plenty of get up and go.
Originally Posted By: Jjones
Happy you posted this because I have been curious how the Napa test looked and what it checked for. Nobody at the Napa stores could tell me anything. It's cheap compared to the others.
Apparently the 3121 Presidential Drive Atlanta Georgia location is/was Staveley Services, which from what I remember has a very good reputation.
Happy you posted this because I have been curious how the Napa test looked and what it checked for. Nobody at the Napa stores could tell me anything. It's cheap compared to the others.
Apparently the 3121 Presidential Drive Atlanta Georgia location is/was Staveley Services, which from what I remember has a very good reputation.
Virgin sample was mailed this morning from the same batch. We should have results in a week to ten days.
They do test for TBN, but I am afraid it won't be relevant.
No, I will continue using it, but I don't think the TBN of this batch of oil will be relevant, because I believe that they accidentally used their CJ-4 HDEO add pack in this batch of oil, which will give it a higher TBN.
The TBN of the Warren syn-blends is around 8.
The TBN of the Warren syn-blends is around 8.
Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
No, I will continue using it, but I don't think the TBN of this batch of oil will be relevant, because I believe that they accidentally used their CJ-4 HDEO add pack in this batch of oil, which will give it a higher TBN.
The TBN of the Warren syn-blends is around 8.
Not bad....
No, I will continue using it, but I don't think the TBN of this batch of oil will be relevant, because I believe that they accidentally used their CJ-4 HDEO add pack in this batch of oil, which will give it a higher TBN.
The TBN of the Warren syn-blends is around 8.
Not bad....
Looks like the lab screwed up. These are the typical additives found in a Warren oil.
The elemental analysis in my UOA was definitely from a diesel engine. They got the physical properties correct from what I can tell. I requested that they retest it.
The elemental analysis in my UOA was definitely from a diesel engine. They got the physical properties correct from what I can tell. I requested that they retest it.
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