2005 Civic UOA Royal Purple 6140 mi (53k vehicle)

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Blackstone Oil Report

Report Date 1/24/12

Unit ID: 05 Civic

Make/Model: Honda 1.7L 4-cyl
Oil Type & Grade: Royal Purple 5W20
Fuel Type: Gasoline (Unleaded)
Oil Use Interval: 6,140 Miles

Comments: Thanks for the notes you provide with your sample. They're helpful. Metals are a bit higher here
than they were last time. Of course, this oil run was longer, and that certainly would account for the extra
iron that turned up, as iron is a metal that tracks with time on the oil (a longer oil run = more iron). Other
metals don't track in the same way. Aluminum likely shows some piston wear, and if silicon is dirt that might
explain it. Check your air filter to make sure there are no problems there. Resample after about 8,000 miles
to see if silicon/aluminum improve.

Miles on Oil: 6140///Unit/Location Averages///4980///Universal Averages
Miles on Unit: 53,062/////////////////////////46,924//////////
Sample Date: 1/15/12///////////////////////9/14/11//////////
Make-up Oil Added: 0/////////////////////////////0/////////////

Aluminum:::: 7///////////////5/////////////3////////////3
Chromium:::: 1///////////////1/////////////1////////////0
Iron:::::::: 13//////////////11////////////8////////////8
Copper:::::: 5///////////////5/////////////4////////////4
Lead:::::::: 7///////////////6/////////////5////////////4
Tin::::::::: 2///////////////1/////////////0////////////1
Molybdenum: 151////////////140///////////128//////////91
Nickel:::::: 1///////////////1/////////////0////////////0
Manganese::: 1///////////////1/////////////1////////////0
Silver:::::: 0///////////////0/////////////0////////////0
Titanium:::: 0///////////////0/////////////0////////////1
Potassium::: 0///////////////0/////////////0////////////1
Boron:::::/:: 10//////////////13////////////15//////////40
Silicon::::: 19//////////////18////////////16//////////12
Sodium:::::: 10//////////////15////////////20//////////32
Calcium::::: 2524////////////2483//////////2442//////2168
Magnesium::: 1463////////////1367//////////1271////////92
Phosphorus:: 930/////////////889///////////847////////683
Zinc:::::::: 993/////////////928///////////863////////815
Barium:::::: 0///////////////0/////////////0////////////0
SHOULD BE
SUS Visc. @ 210F 51.8///////////46-59//////////51.9
cSt visc. @ 100C 7.82/////////6.0-10.2/////////7.84
Flashpoint 395////////////>355///////////410
Fuel % ////////////////////// Antifreeze % 0/////////////0//////////////0
Water % 0.0//////////////////////0.0
Insolubles 0.2/////////////////////0.3
TBN Didn't Order///////////////////8.1


Questions: Are the silicon and aluminum numbers cause for concern? The variance from universal averages is single digit parts per million. I'm debating whether I'd introduce more silicon opening up the air filter box to check things out than I could potentially keep out. It's a paper Mann filter that I traded out my K&N washable for during the first OCI in the report.

Both intervals were oil from the same case of Royal Purple 5w20 SM (with Synerlec). How come some of the additives read higher in the longer interval? Is there always this much variance from quart to quart within the same case?

Next interval was going to be Toyota 0w20, but as some of you are already aware, it was accidentally ditched during timing belt service by the local Honda dealer, and now I'm going to run their bulk oil 3-5k before I get my Toyota Water in the sump. I may run an analysis on the Bulk Honda Mystery Oil when the time is right. Would that be a complete exercise in futility and transferring $25 from my wallet to Blackstone's?
 
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Was the 4980 run your first time with RP? If so, that may explain the higher additives with the later run. RP has more additives than other oils so it is likely that whatever was in there before was diluting it down a bit.
As for your dirt concern..maybe. I would check it over. Check the PCV and breather hoses too. It could be getting in through that way.

I wouldnt bother on a UOA if they had it opened up. I probably wouldnt anyway. Just run a UOA on the Toyota stuff later.
 
Hey, it is hard to complain too much. Insols were pretty high last OCI, what oil filter were you using? This run was longer and insols were really low at .02. Just curious. I agree with colt, just sample again maybe with the Toyota oil. Thanks for the post.


BTW: Try to make those charts a little easier to read;) lol
 
Originally Posted By: oiltard
Next interval was going to be Toyota 0w20, but as some of you are already aware, it was accidentally ditched during timing belt service
Btw, did you monitor MPG on the different oils in this Civic ? Did mpg improve or no change after switching to toyota 0W-20, for whatever time it was in the engine ?
 
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: oiltard
Next interval was going to be Toyota 0w20, but as some of you are already aware, it was accidentally ditched during timing belt service
Btw, did you monitor MPG on the different oils in this Civic ? Did mpg improve or no change after switching to toyota 0W-20, for whatever time it was in the engine ?


The 3 days and 200 miles during which I had the Toyota 0w20 in there were pretty cold days, so mpg seemed on the low side. This car really notices outside temperature as far as mpg is concerned. I can average 42-43 mpg in the summer time (I have a light foot), but this time of year, I'm happy with 37. Intake temp seems to have a significant effect, because this trend remains even when the oil is up to full operating temperature.

Obviously a half tank of gas isn't a statistically signifant sample, but there was no "Eureka, I'm getting a billion more miles to the gallon" over the 6 or so gallons I got to burn with the Toyota oil in there.

The first sample was not my first run of Royal Purple. I've been using this oil for a while (4 or 5 oil changes?) with a Wix 51356 filter. I'm embarassed to admit that first UOA was the first time I went over 3,000 miles.

The car was in the body shop twice during this run, for minor deer accidents (Hooray New Jersey. I hit 2 deer in a 6 week period!), and one more time because I insisted they replace the cheap replacement headlight assemblies with Honda OEM. I know it saw some serious idling time, but I'm not sure if that may have contributed to dust and contaminants.

I guess I'll do my best to check everything out. I'll get out the Haynes manual and find where my PCV assembly is located and double check that the air filter's seated snugly in its box, and look for any cracks or gaps between the filter housing and the intake manifold. And I'll keep sampling to see if these numbers improve either way.

Thanks!
 
It's so much the cooler intake air (which actually helps performance) as much as it's the cold dense air during the winter time that makes it harder for the car to glide through.

I noticed it while data logging engine parameters with my laptop that during the winter time, while doing the same speed with cruise control on, fuel pressure is slightly higher due to the need for more gas to keep the same speed while cutting through the dense air.

Some says it's the supposed "winter gas" but i don't buy it, esp since i'm in Florida and don't need a serious winter blend.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
It's so much the cooler intake air (which actually helps performance) as much as it's the cold dense air during the winter time that makes it harder for the car to glide through.

I noticed it while data logging engine parameters with my laptop that during the winter time, while doing the same speed with cruise control on, fuel pressure is slightly higher due to the need for more gas to keep the same speed while cutting through the dense air.

Some says it's the supposed "winter gas" but i don't buy it, esp since i'm in Florida and don't need a serious winter blend.


That's an angle I hadn't even considered. My thought was that cooler air's greater density required more gas to reach a proper stoichiometric ratio, so my ECM was just doing what it does and pumping more fuel. This makes a lot of sense though, gotta push my way through denser air. And it explains why I do a lot better on mpg with winter fuel on warm winter days than on frigid cold ones, even when I plug in the block heater and make a decent trip on the highway. (Please correct me if I'm using any of these terms incorrectly, guys & gals).
 
Well, although more fuel "might" be going in due to the cooler air coming in, it's also making more power (HP) as a result, which in turn is making you push LESS on the GO pedal which pretty much balances out the equation and leaves only the dense air outside that requires more energy to move through
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: volk06
Wow that sure is hard to read.


Looked better before I hit "post." Everything was lined up perfectly. How do you guys get your Blackstone analyses to line up nicely? I hand typed all this into notepad and copy/pasted it, then reformatted it and tried it again twice. Not having a ton of luck!

Artem -

As far as the additional horsepower, maybe if I were driving more aggressively, this would translate to a wash as far as the extra fuel being added to the denser air, but I do a lot of coasting and gliding and very lightly feathering the gas pedal. Not sure if it makes sense, but in my mind, the warmer air at very low throttle results in less gas being used.

I spend a lot of time not using the engine to propel the car. So let's say I'm just barely using enough throttle to coast to the peak of a hill. While I'm ascending, the air temperature is irrelevant, because the ECU adds enough fuel, I push the pedal less, etc... As I begin to descend, the car's being propelled almost entirely by momentum and gravity, but for a moment, there's still fuel coming into the cylinders.

At a certain rpm/speed/throttle position the fuel injectors cut off (open loop, 999.9 mpg readout). But, wouldn't warm air result in less fuel used in the time period between when I release the accelerator and when the computer goes into open loop and cuts off the fuel injectors?

Then, of course, I may be thinking of this in the entirely wrong way. Please feel free to educate me if that's the case. I do still like the additional explanatory power of pushing the car through denser air.
 
If you could stick a mini fridge into the passenger seat and route flexible piping into the intake to allow it to ingest COOL air, while driving during the summer in say 90F weather for example, you'll be getting better MPG readout due to the engine's performance overall being better due to the cold air coming in which is denser and loaded with oxygen.

My understanding is that the same amount of fuel will be coming in (up to a point as per the ECU) but because of the cooler air, combustion becomes more efficient which = more power, even if you're barely touching the gas pedal which cruising.

This translates to you needing FOR EXAMPLE 3% less throttle with the cold air entering the engine to maintain the 50hp needed for example to keep it rolling @ 60mph while cutting though warm summer air.

I hope that makes sense.

I read a study about it once but wouldn't even know where to begin looking for the site, so just take it as my opinion on the matter unless someone comes in to either correct me and/or post more info.
 
Originally Posted By: Artem
My understanding is that the same amount of fuel will be coming in (up to a point as per the ECU) but because of the cooler air, combustion becomes more efficient which = more power, even if you're barely touching the gas pedal which cruising.

This translates to you needing FOR EXAMPLE 3% less throttle with the cold air entering the engine to maintain the 50hp needed for example to keep it rolling @ 60mph while cutting though warm summer air.

I hope that makes sense.

I read a study about it once but wouldn't even know where to begin looking for the site, so just take it as my opinion on the matter unless someone comes in to either correct me and/or post more info.


It does make sense, and I think I follow. Maybe the warm air/requirement for more throttle to create the same fuel/air mixture is more forgiving of my foot's inability to meter fuel with ultimate precision?

In other words, I waste more gas when there's more throttle response due to colder air (e.g. I don't adjust perfectly to giving the 3% less throttle required to achieve the same 50 hp in your example). Is that feasible? Seems lots of hupermilers build warm air intakes in order to maximize fuel economy in computer-controlled fuel-injected vehicles.
 
Code:


Miles on Oil: 6140 Unit 4980 Universal

Miles on Unit: 53,062 Average 46,924 Averages

Sample Date: 1/15/12 9/14/11

Make-up Oil: 0 0



Aluminum: 7 5 3 3

Chromium: 1 1 1 0

Iron: 13 11 8 8

Copper: 5 5 4 4

Lead: 7 6 5 4

Tin: 2 1 0 1

Molybdenum: 151 140 128 91

Nickel: 1 1 0 0

Manganese: 1 1 1 0

Titanium: 0 0 0 1

Potassium: 0 0 0 1

Boron: 10 13 15 40

Silicon: 19 18 16 12

Sodium: 10 15 20 32

Calcium: 2524 2483 2442 2168

Magnesium: 1463 1367 1271 92

Phosphorus: 930 889 847 683

Zinc: 993 928 863 815

Barium: 0 0 0 0

"Should Be"

SUS@210F 51.8 46-59 51.9

cSt@100C 7.82 6.0-10.2 7.84

Flashpoint 395 >355 410

Fuel %
Insolubles 0.2
TBN NONE 8.1

If you put the typed report inside code brackets, it will keep your formatting. I do the same thing and type it in notepad then drop it in this here code box to keep my TABs which it will delete otherwise.
 
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Eureka! Thanks for the help. Now I need comments. Anybody worried about the silicon & aluminum? I think the car was idled excessively by the shop that did the body work. Is that a potential explanation?

Code:


Blackstone Oil Report



Report Date 1/24/12



Unit ID: 05 Civic



Make/Model: Honda 1.7L 4-cyl

Oil Type & Grade: Royal Purple 5W20

Fuel Type: Gasoline (Unleaded)

Oil Use Interval: 6,140 Miles



Comments: Thanks for the notes you provide with your sample. They're helpful. Metals are a bit higher here

than they were last time. Of course, this oil run was longer, and that certainly would account for the extra

iron that turned up, as iron is a metal that tracks with time on the oil (a longer oil run = more iron). Other

metals don't track in the same way. Aluminum likely shows some piston wear, and if silicon is dirt that might

explain it. Check your air filter to make sure there are no problems there. Resample after about 8,000 miles

to see if silicon/aluminum improve.



Miles on Oil: 6140 Unit Averages 4980 Universal Averages

Miles on Unit: 53,062 46,924

Sample Date: 1/15/12 9/14/11

Make-up Oil Added: 0 0

Aluminum 7 5 3 3

Chromium 1 1 1 0

Iron 13 11 8 8

Copper 5 5 4 4

Lead 7 6 5 4

Tin 2 1 0 1

Molybdenum 151 140 128 91

Nickel 1 1 0 0

Manganese 1 1 1 0

Silver 0 0 0 0

Titanium 0 0 0 1

Potassium 0 0 0 1

Boron 10 13 15 40

Silicon 19 18 16 12

Sodium 10 15 20 32

Calcium 2524 2483 2442 2168

Magnesium 1463 1367 1271 92

Phosphorus 930 889 847 683

Zinc 993 928 863 815

Barium 0 0 0 0

SHOULD BE

SUS Visc. @ 210F 51.8 46-59 51.9

cSt visc. @ 100C 7.82 6.0-10.2 7.84

Flashpoing in F 395 >355 410

Fuel %
Antifreeze % 0 0 0

Water % 0.0
Insolubles 0.2
TBN Didn't Order pre>
 
Originally Posted By: oiltard
Originally Posted By: fpracha
Originally Posted By: oiltard
Next interval was going to be Toyota 0w20, but as some of you are already aware, it was accidentally ditched during timing belt service
Btw, did you monitor MPG on the different oils in this Civic ? Did mpg improve or no change after switching to toyota 0W-20, for whatever time it was in the engine ?
The 3 days and 200 miles during which I had the Toyota 0w20 in there were pretty cold days, so mpg seemed on the low side. This car really notices outside temperature as far as mpg is concerned. I can average 42-43 mpg in the summer time (I have a light foot), but this time of year, I'm happy with 37. Thanks!
No you do not need to worry so much about mpg at all imho. 37-43 mpg is a pretty decent range attributable mostly to your long trips and extra care-while-driving to this engine!
Originally Posted By: oiltard
Eureka! Thanks for the help. Anybody worried about the silicon & aluminum?
The silicon dirt I would attribute to the highway miles while the Mann air filter has a solid reputation. As fo r the Al wear counts, i would do successive UOAs over next 7K-8K intervals and extend OCIs based on the UOAs upto 15K or so... depends on the trend of all wear metals (not just Al).
 
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
I doubt it. More likely it is from a slight dirt intrusion. I would go over the tubing and check the filter seal.


Replaced the Mann red paper air filter with a new one this morning. Everything under my hood looks brand new. I try to take really good care of this car. Seals all look good. The filter I replaced looks brand new (as it should with only about 12k miles on it).

Maybe I didn't have all the bolts on the air box tightened down well, although they did all seem snug. I'm going to hope these numbers come out better on the next UOA.
 
Cold air = colder trans oil temps and higher hysteresis loss in tires and colder wheel bearing grease and cv joint lubes. Major MPG loss is from tire loss and colder oil temps, NOT air density affecting drag - you are driving too slow for this to be a major factor. You could alway do a controlled highway coast down to get some general comparative data, but you cant factor out the cold tire and bearing grease - though you can the cold oil through a thorough warmup first.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Cold air = colder trans oil temps and higher hysteresis loss in tires and colder wheel bearing grease and cv joint lubes. Major MPG loss is from tire loss and colder oil temps, NOT air density affecting drag - you are driving too slow for this to be a major factor. You could alway do a controlled highway coast down to get some general comparative data, but you cant factor out the cold tire and bearing grease - though you can the cold oil through a thorough warmup first.


I do make sure to pump up the tires as the temperatures drop, but the rest of this makes a ton of sense and I'm smacking myself in the forehead for not having thought of it.

By the way, I know it's not the most interesting of all topics on BITOG, but I am curious how much all of the experts think I should be worried about the Silicon, Iron, and Aluminum numbers and if anybody think the excessive idling this car underwent while having the hood, bumper, and headlights replaced twice could be explanatory in any way.
 
Looking at the metals in the analysis, I would say with certainty that the oil has a typical and classic (read old fashioned) diesel "type" DP in it and is more than you need for your OCI and will cause excessive wear (relatively) due to unbalanced surface competition amoungst the polar constituents
 
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