Originally Posted By: John_K
Originally Posted By: 10bears
rcclint, I certainly agree. This response runs on a bit long but may be worth the read.
Whether intentional or not, the problems with these cars create some really cool low buck opportunities for us car folk, though. I was kidding around with my Dad saying it's basically a "kit car". That is, the values are way down because everybody knows about the widespread leaks and coolant guzzling "suicide switch" and few really wants to do the PITA job to get rid of all of that... but if one has the ability and inclination, it can make for a really good all around car that can run a very long time for not much cash.
Were all the leakage problems intentional? I certainly can't say but I too have my conspiracy leanings! Even now it seems like every time I turn around the gaskets or UIM are being updated or changed. Metal framed LIM gaskets are the best/latest for that in my knowledge. But that could already be out of date.
I'll offer this for some level of excuses for the general: An aluminum cast manifold on iron heads has caused problems on and off for manufacturers for decades. Then, some eager beaver thinks the plastic framed gaskets with silicone beads will offer the "bestest" sealing ever... and sometimes it does... until the dissimilar metal castings and dissimilar expansion rates get involved... and then the plastic hardens over time... partially due to the high temps the engines are run at due to CAFE requirements... and then DexCool caps it off by deteriorating metals, gaskets and especially plastics... so many things went wrong it certainly SOUNDS like it could be intentional!
So I can't say if it was intentional or not. It does seem to me that - if not for these problems - the engine would run way too long for best corporate profits in new car sales.
Anyhow, for an early retiree like me with a car background it's a good way to get a really nice car dirt cheap. But certainly not without work! And if one hires out that work, WATCH OUT! Will the mechanic get rid of the plastic LIM gaskets while doing the rest? Is the mechanic up to date on all the updates to the updates in parts and procedures? I found a glut of info regarding the refit on the web. If not for that, I can guarantee you that my work on this job would've lasted only a few years.
And, even the latest greatest (supposedly) UIM from APN still has question marks hanging over it. I think it will last 5 years worth of heat cycles, but it could easily be problematic in it's own right long before then due to possibilities of MORE heat transfer through the steel bushing.
The problematic UIM is supposedly part of the reason the engine performs as well as it does. Going to the plastic UIM allowed them to make a really nice and radical plenum that tapers from a wide, tall port beginning to a high velocity entrance at the valve. This was arguably not cost effective to be done with aluminum in high production. So now there's a 3rd material in the mix... aluminum LIM, iron heads, plastic UIM.
And let's not forget the bolt threat leakage on these engines! Every wet bolt on it had leakage around the threads. Lotsa' thread cleaning and blue loctite on re-assembly! And a prayer at that!
Certainly not an ideal outcome from that experiment.
Well anyhow, rambling response to your input but thank you nonetheless.
In conclusion: Whatever the reasons for the cluster-(bleep), it's left us car people with a low buck "kit car"!!
Larry S.
My wife had one of these POS--trust me, the engine is only one of its' problems!
John
John,
Well, that's kinda' harsh. But the cars do have a lot of problems. And, if the inevitable lemon gets superimposed over the common problems, the car would clearly be a total pain.
I'm an early retired former ASE cert MM, so it'll give me a hobby!
Actually, part of the reason I bought it was it's dirt cheap, excellent gas mileage, powerful (for a cheap car) and was in absolutely primo condition other than the leakage.
It's tight now, but a lot of work to get it there!
Finally, family members have owned them. After the obvious TSB's have been addressed, they have been the most reliable cars those family member have ever owned.
But opinions vary and you're certainly entitled to yours. Sounds like you earned it the hard way.
While these may or may not be great "kit cars" as I'd opined above, there is certainly no question in my mind that the well known problems with the zillions of these made hurt the General's reputation - and for good reason.
LS
10*B
