1995 Buick LeSabre, 3800, non-SC, RedLine 5W30, 10,000 Km, 2nd run

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Redneck53

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Here is the second analysis on RedLine 5W30. Details as follows:
1995 Buick Lesabre
3.8 L, non SC
120,000 Km on engine
10,000 Km this OCI
Baldwin filter
Leaking intake manifold changed just before oil sample taken.

Lab: WearCheck

This is the second analysis. New oil and filter was used each OCI. The first numbers are from Sep 04 (10915 Km) and the second are from Feb 05 (10,000 Km)

Contamination:

Silicon 22 / 26
Potassium 2.3 / 2.8
Sodium 21 / 26
Fuel Glycol Not tested
Water Sulfation 284 / 317
Nitratiion 54 / 68

Oil Condition:

Boron 5.2 / 4.8
Barium 1.0 / 0.8
Calcium 2503 / 2748
Magnesium 9.8 / 11
Molybdenum 524 / 581
Sodium 21 / 26
Phosphorus 975 / 1157
Sulfur 4077 / 4672
Zinc 1228 / 1331
Visc @ 100 degC 11.4 / 12.3
Oxidation 120 / 141
TBN 5.10 / 3.56

Wear:

Iron 19 / 25 Abn > 150
Nickel 0.1 / 0.3 Abn >5
Chromium 1.0 / 1.9 Abn >20
Titanium 0.1 / 0.0 Abn N/A
Copper 22 / 15 Abn >155
Aluminum 5.2 / 7.5 Abn >40
Tin 1.3 / 1.1 Abn >10
Lead 47 / 30 Abn >50
Silver 0.4 / 0.3 Abn >2
 
Looks like the wear metals are high, as usual with Redline...

I think you should switch oils before that stuff chews your engine up and spits it out!

Seriously, regular old dino seem to turn in much better numbers than Redline.

Dan
 
Yep, not prevalent but, manifold leaks do occur on the 3800. You caught it before the last uoa? Did prior uoa tip you off or was there other signs?
 
Haley 10,

Green puddle was the clue. I located the leak at the throtle body and noticed that after the engine warmed up, the leak disappeared. I convinced the dealership to repair this known problem. However, upon further inspection, the mechanic noticed a hole in the manifold. Unfortunately, I couldn't convince them to replace that for free
frown.gif
. The leak started after the last UOA. I actually did this one prematurely to determine if the oil was contaminated with antifreeze. I will leave this oil in for another month or so and then I will fill with GC. (stash is building up quite fine
grin.gif
)
 
My dealer said he has only seen a couple of the manifold melt problems, very rare. Now that it all fixed, enjoy. Mine seems to love GC.
grin.gif


Mine has never leaked yet, but I took it in for a warranty recall (2000 model Regal), before any problem occured.

I'm too cheap to try Redline, anyway, so no opinion there.
 
I too have been surprised at the wear numbers in the Redline posts. Perhaps the high esther oil is not compatible with some bearing materials.

Still, the silicon number is quite high relative to others and you may have an air leak despite the gasket replacement.
 
If your dealership think the leaking manifold is rare his is either stupid or a lier!! THe 3.8 is known to leak with the dupont nylon 33(see plastic) upper intake manifold. The egr gas tube in the aluminum lower erodes the plastic away and then it leaks!! THe first symptom is either a rough idle and miss or the puddle of coolant were the TB bolts to the manifold. The aftermearket fix is a redesigned upper that works with the exsisting lower. THe GM fix requires the replacement of the lower and upper. Their is also a sleeve repair kit for the jober market!

Their are some that think that Dex-Cool and the egr stove pipe are equaly responable for this situation!

Their is a TSB for this issue.

As far as the UOA results go the test did not test for glycol so we do not know if coolant was present or not? If the coolant made it into the engine both UOA are useless as this engine is going to be throwing high wear numbers for a while!

Judgeing from past experince with the 3.8 I would say that you definately had a glycol issue in spite of the low water reading! These engines do not throw the wear numbers like you are seeing unless thier is a coolant leak of detonation! Look at the lead it is insanely high for this engine type! Redline alone would not account for this much of a spike in lead especialy on the second run of Redline!

Fuel Tanker Man, Their are plenty of Trophy Redline UOA but they are all with imports! WHile it is true that Redline does not test the best in GM products it does not normaly produce the signiture we are seeing here. You might want to look at a few more 3.8 UOA reports to get an idea of what they look like when the engine is in proper running order.

Redneck 53 you might want to do an Auto-Rx treatment on this engine!! It has been my experince that even with a light coolant leak with little to no sludge formed it can take 3 OCI to get things to trend back down to pre-leak levels! If their is any sludge present then it takes even longer!
 
I think BITOG member Jay made some good points.

quote:
Every blender must strike a balance between friction wear and corrosive wear. Some AW/FM adds are corrosive, such as the sulpher and phosphorus in ZDDP, which causes soft metal corrosion. That's why, for example, GL-5 lubes don't belong where GL-4 lubes should go.

In my opinion, RedLine uses a highly active (corrosive) additive pack that protects well in racing conditions, but is corrosive to soft metals. It's a good balance for a racing engine, but not a good balance for a daily driver.
Click to expand...
quote:
Redline alone would not account for this much of a spike in lead especialy on the second run of Redline!
Click to expand...
John, we've seen people run RL, RL and RL and still have high lead. Then they switch to Mobil 1 and it drops.
 
Thanks guys,
Unfortunately Auto Rx is not an option for me as it is not available in Canada
frown.gif
. However, the next couple of runs will be with GC so we'll see how the next set of numbers looks.

cheers.gif
canada.gif


Bry
 
buster, Look at high his lead is!! This is a 3.8 or 3800 we are talking about!! Redline does not and has never caused a spike this high in this engine type! We are talking about 47PPM this sample and 30PPM of lead in the last two UOA!!! His copper is high as well! We also know for a fact that his intake was leaking coolant and needed to be replaced!
 
 
Thanks for taking the time to look through those, John. And true, they aren't as bad as many Redline UOA's you see, but here's my take, respectfully submitted, of course.
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The first UOA was for a run of 10K miles, but the customer was using an additive--Lube Control to be specific, plus 2 oz of something else... Iron and copper markedly above universals... TBN of .2 (point two, that is...)

The second one almost the same (from the same member, same engine presumably). TBN up fifty percent to .3 this time.
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Copper, Tin, and Iron well above universal averages.

Third one isn't bad, I'll agree. But it is a Subaru, which is reportedly hard to kill.
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Fourth looks decent. That one's a 4K drain, and makes a good case for drawing the line at that mileage with Redline. TBN still over 4, so it might go on to 6K...

Fifth looks good on that 5K drain, true. Moderately high lead on the first run (this UOA shows two 5300 mile runs). Still, nothing dino Pennzoil couldn't have done better--I wouldn't think. read 'em and weep...

Sixth report is--even according to the person who posted it--inconclusive. He used a magnetic drain plug which probably attracted some of the iron. But aside from this, it does appear that the Redline did almost as good as a cheaper oil (namely the Mobil 1 which he shows results for). Mobil's TBN's look better.

Respectfully, guys, I don't see the fascination with Redline. There are much better oils which cost way less and are certainly easier to find.

Dan
 
Fuel Tnaker Man, The point was that Redline is not some evil engine killer as try to make it out to be! It has a very unique chemistry and as such has a signiture that is just as different. You really have to let it run a few times in a healthy engine.

As for the universal averages we do not know what milage the universal averages are based on. Is that average for 3000 miles, 5000 miles etc...... I am preety sure that 10,000 miles is not the average! So with out that information the universal average is meaningless!

It basicly comes down to run three times and test it! If you do not do that your self in a well documented engine you have no idea what it is or is not able to do. It is easy to talk but at some point you have to ante up if you want to put forth wild rumors and theory and actualy test it! I ran M1R purely for this reason! I put my money were my mouth is. I tortured this oil and it did ok! I wasnot impressed with it by any means but my engine did not self destruct either so all is well!

I truly belive that other then useing an oil that is extremely thiner then recomended for ambient temps or extremely thicker then recomended for ambient temps. all is well. I do not think any of the major oil refinery or blender make a product that is going to kill your engine!

We here at bitog are anal and just get off and over analzing everything!! This is fine becasue I have a great time and miss you guys when I am gone for a couple of days!! I got my M1R for $25 so it was not a huge sacrifice for me to try! Even though I am on unemployment I still ran a UOA because I promised to do so! My opion does not count for as much as my UOA does pro or con!!
 
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