1986 FBI Miami Shootout

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bigj_16

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I referenced this shootout a little while ago in another thread. I was just reading the account on Wikipedia again today, and it really struck me again, as I had not read it in a while. This shootout had a huge impact on law enforcement, among others. If you have not read it in a while (or at all), read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout This is the 8 minute shootout scene from the movie, which by all accounts was pretty accurate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBGfKtuo2AM
 
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I first read about that shootout when researching the 10mm round. Pretty incredible all the changes that stemmed from that event, like the creation of the now ubiquitous 40 S&W, among many other things.
 
I think the biggest mistake the FBI made in this thing was not involving weaponry. They chased 2 heavily armed suspects they knew liked to shoot, into a residential area, and engaged them. They had air surveillance on the car. They could have pulled back, but didn't. This is like a lot of southern California car chases you see on the news. It starts out by a guy speeding or running a red light. They end up with 5 news helicopters following the guy. Yet they still chase them until there is a big crash and someone gets severely injured or killed. Weapon calibers were not the only thing the FBI changed after that incident.
 
They still talk about this in the academy along with the Newhall massacre. It had little to do with caliber as much as bullet design. They were using antiquated "fbi lead loads" which had very poor reliability with expansion. They suffered non-survivable wounds, even if a .45 had gone through the same channel the result would've been the same. We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.
 
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.
We did? What do we arm women and people that can't deal with recoil in the FBI using today? PC has brought us full circle and we are back to where we started.
 
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40
We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.
We did? What do we arm women and people that can't deal with recoil in the FBI using today? PC has brought us full circle and we are back to where we started.
If you're referring to the 9mm, the ballistics of todays duty/carry ammo is far different than 30 years ago. Current ballistics of the .40 and 9mm are near identical. For duty I can carry either one, I carry the 9mm because I like having more rounds. With 3 mags I have 6 more rounds than a comparable gun in a .40. I am a bigger guy too. But hey, carry what makes you feel better. Both have pluses and minuses. I carried a .40 for a while until we were allowed to carry what we wanted.
 
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering. The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W. They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay... The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created. Still looking for a good example of 1006. I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight. Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.
 
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Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering. The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W. They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay... The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created. Still looking for a good example of 1006. I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight. Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.
After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile
 
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering. The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W. They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay... The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created. Still looking for a good example of 1006. I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight. Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.
After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile
The little sign says "consignment". She might not have any leeway to negotiate the price.
 
1006 is a cool pistol. Only thing wrong with it is that danged safety lever on the slide. Anybody know how easy/hard it is to do a good trigger job on one?
 
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering. The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W. They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay... The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created. Still looking for a good example of 1006. I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight. Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.
After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile
The little sign says "consignment". She might not have any leeway to negotiate the price.
You are correct. She said exactly that. We agreed that the seller was an optimist....
 
Originally Posted By: john_pifer
1006 is a cool pistol. Only thing wrong with it is that danged safety lever on the slide. Anybody know how easy/hard it is to do a good trigger job on one?
You should look at the 1076. Double action/single action with a frame-mounted decocker. Also, a 4 1/2” barrel vs. the 5” on the 1006. Trigger pull (DA) is long, and heavy, but smooth. SA is a pretty reasonable pull. I always thought the trigger was a good one, for the DA/SA setup. It’s a bit smoother, with a sharper break and easier reset than, say, a Beretta 92.
 
I test drove a Smith 5906 and hated it. Bought a Smith M&P 9mm. Just fit my hand so much better than the older, nicer looking, classic pistol. I also dislike DA/SA and safeties. Simple is better for me.
 
In reading the blow-by-blow account, I would describe stopping power of their pistols to be the absolute least of their problems. No disrespect to these guys at all, because this did go down a long time ago, and there has been a truckload of development since then of law enforcement tactics. Given foresight, nobody would enter into this situation, changing only the type and power of the hand gun. I'm not sure that anyone would even bother. This event called for some type of SRT, and a 10mm full load was NOT the weapon to bring into this situation. Unfortunately, this was a CF. One of those situations where too many things went wrong all at the same time. The fact that they were dealing with a pair that targeted armed citizens out shooting live weapons to steal cars from really says something. Even when it came to the simpler details, they'd rather kill an armed human being than doing any other way. Most criminals of this type try to tread lightly until it comes down to the critical criminal act. These guys couldn't have cared less.
 
To be sure, both the Miami and NoHo shootouts would have been handled differently by LE these days. However, there are lessons for civilians from these, also.
 
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