147gr ammo recoil attribution

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Ws6

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Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted By: Ws6
If you have a pistol that is so small that you can't control it because you can't grip it properly, either figure out how to properly manage it, or get a pistol big enough to fight with, is my .02.
...... or get what I currently use, that being Ruger ARX Polycase 80+p grain ammo for my sub-compact 9mm. Definitely more controllable / lighter recoil ammo, that keeps me more on-target / improved accuracy. These bulets faired very well in gel tests done at truthaboutgunsdotcom, using the Ruger's virtual twin-sister bullet, that being the Polycase ARX Inceptors. There appears to be mixed reviews/opinions here on the 147gr's felt-recoil, in comparison to the very commonly used 115 and 124gr varieties. So I will venture over to Bass Pro Shop to purchase the 147gr Hornady Custom HPs and conduct my own testing on how those 147s recoil, in comparison to the 80+ps - 115s and 124s. Thanks everyone for their opinions here.
The mixed reviews are due to different powder being used by various companies. The RA9T is confirmed as a soft shooter in my book, and by others who have opined on it. I have always heard that, tested it, agreed. It's more of a "shove" than a "snap", as it were. The Polycase ARX is not as effective, terminally, as a quality JHP. This is because the velocities involved (14-1500fps) are insufficient to cause TSC to be an actual wounding mechanism. Below about 1800fps or so, the only tissue a bullet will destroy, is tissue that it physically touches (gross skewing out of the norm lowers this to around 1500fps, in the case of .78 caliber soft lead musket balls that flatten on impact, etc. and displace tissue very violently, so yes, there are exceptions, but a pointy little 9mm isn't one). Basically, you're shooting FMJ that looks sexy in gel, and might create a larger permanent cavity than a round-nose fmj, but not one that extends beyond 0.355" or so of the caliber diameter. The only reason this round is "impressive" in gel is because gel shows TSC, even when it's below meaningful thresholds of velocity in actual tissue.
 
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Ws6

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Originally Posted By: NateDN10
I can't say that I've done apples to apples comparisons, but I've noticed that 147-gr defense ammo has stronger recoil than typical 115-gr range ammo. Which is the opposite of what I expected, because I've also heard that 147-gr was softer shooting. FWIW, I've also tried 115-gr defense ammo and noticed no difference in recoil between it and standard FMJ range ammo. Not that any of it is bad! In my opinion 9mm had very low recoil even in small handguns.
115gr Winchester White Box is pretty darn snappy. Depends on the ammo.
 
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Due to weightlifting, I annoyed my right wrist a while back. Shooting my 1911 45 really did hurt when my wrist was injured.... But the pain was a good kind of pain smile I'm glad it's healed now smile So, I'd say that pistol recoil exists. In the case of a 1911, it's enough to cause lightning bolts of pain in my sprained wrist.
 
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Originally Posted By: Ws6
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
I can't say that I've done apples to apples comparisons, but I've noticed that 147-gr defense ammo has stronger recoil than typical 115-gr range ammo. Which is the opposite of what I expected, because I've also heard that 147-gr was softer shooting. FWIW, I've also tried 115-gr defense ammo and noticed no difference in recoil between it and standard FMJ range ammo. Not that any of it is bad! In my opinion 9mm had very low recoil even in small handguns.
115gr Winchester White Box is pretty darn snappy. Depends on the ammo.
That's interesting - the 147 gr I mentioned was Winchester White Box (USA9JHP2). The 115 gr defense ammo I compared it to was Hornady Critical Defense.
 
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Look at the muzzle energy of the loads. "Recoil" is physics. If the 147gr load has more ME than a given 115gr load...it will also have more recoil. "perceived recoil" as some have stated is subjective and may be influenced by muzzle blast, slide velocity etc. Shoot a few different loads and pick what pleases you.
 

Ws6

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Originally Posted By: ammolab
Look at the muzzle energy of the loads. "Recoil" is physics. If the 147gr load has more ME than a given 115gr load...it will also have more recoil. "perceived recoil" as some have stated is subjective and may be influenced by muzzle blast, slide velocity etc. Shoot a few different loads and pick what pleases you.
I think it's much more than muzzle energy. For example, with my M4 type rifle, 75gr Gold Dot is the most violently ejecting case, and causes the most recoil, by a notable margin. Yet it leaves the barrel at around 2500fps. It has almost identical ME as a 40gr VMAX at well over 3000fps, but a TON more recoil, and more recoil than my 77gr TMK's at 2750fps. I still have no idea why the bolt velocity is higher and recoil is more with it, but I strongly suspect powder burn characteristics. I think the same applies to pistols. Recoil is a bit of a broad term, really, as there is total energy vs. momentum. I can shove you, or I can punch you, as an extreme example. I have found 147gr rounds I have shot, especially RA9T shove me more than punch me.
 
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Originally Posted By: 3800Series
I'm one of those rare cases that do not think handguns have any real recoil. I just don't understand, be it a .22lr, 9mm, 40mm, 45acp, or even a 44 magnium.
try a .357Mag S&W JFrame with 125gr PD loads and the hard walnut grips...that might wake up your hands after 40-50 rounds... grin
 
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I've found shooting standard pressure 124 has more recoil than +P 115(even hot stuff like Corbon 115 +P). I've never shot any 147, I'd assume it would follow that trend.
 
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Let's clear the air. Before I start, let me give you full disclosure. I am a mechanical engineer and work at a major automotive manufacturer (Honda). This means I have a firm grasp on physics. I also shoot. A lot. I also handload and have shot the 9mm. A lot. I've also worked on handguns and played with adding weight, recoil (action) spring rates, mainspring rates, and other physical changes that are beyond the scope of this conversation. No, I'm not trying to beat my chest, I'm just telling you that I do have some experience with this and many of you are confused to some degree. As you know, the 9x19mm Luger cartridge comes with three common bullet weights: 115gr, 124gr, and 147gr. There is not much of a difference between each step, but the 147gr bullet is considered "heavy-for-caliber." There is a considerable increase in mass (27%) when you jump from the 115gr to the 147gr bullet. When you push the two bullets at the same velocity, there is a considerable difference in perceived recoil, momentum, and muzzle energy. That is easy enough to see. Push the 147gr bullet at 1000 fps and you'll have 326 ft-lbf of energy at the muzzle. Push a 115gr bullet at the same velocity and you have 255 ft-lbf of energy at the muzzle. However, ammunition manufacturers rarely load the 115gr that slow or the 147gr that fast. You typically see advertised velocities of 1150fps for the 115gr (337 ft-lbf) and 950fps for the 147gr (294 ft-lbf). These numbers vary greatly depending on the manufacturer and intended purpose of the cartridge. In the competitive shooting world of IDPA, USPSA, and 3-Gun, you have a term called POWER FACTOR. PF is essentially the shooter's word for "momentum" or "impulse." We calculate PF by simply multiplying the muzzle velocity (ft/s) by the bullet weight (grains) and divide by 1000 to arrive at the PF for that load. "Minor" power factor is 125 and "major" power factor is 165. You can see that in order to make minor PF in 9mm, you must make a different velocity for each bullet mass. The 147gr must make ~850 fps (235 ft-lbf). The 124gr must make ~1008 fps (279 ft-lbf). The 115gr must make ~1087 fps (302 ft-lbf). As you can see, each one of these loads makes the same amount of impulse, but the lighter-mass bullets produce much more muzzle energy than the heavier bullets do. The increase in kinetic energy results in a greater acceleration of the bullet, increasing the amount of force that accelerates the slide (increased bolt velocity), which results in a "snappier" recoil. If you ever get to compare a .45 ACP making "minor" power factor with a 230 gr bullet at 544 fps, you'll quickly see why the 147gr bullet has less perceived recoil than a 115gr bullet! This is also why the .40 S&W cartridge is oft-quoted as having a more violent recoil than the .45 ACP, because you have a lighter bullet (180 gr) running at a much higher velocity (1000 fps) that makes much more energy (400 ft-lbf) than the typical .45 ACP load (230gr bullet at 835 fps = 356 ft-lbf)! All of this, of course, hinges on the same variables held for each caliber including primer brisance, powder burn rate, and chamber pressure. The powder mass typically decreases with the bullet mass used, so instead of 5.1gr of powder behind a 124gr bullet, I'd use maybe 4.0gr behind the 147gr pill. I hope this sheds light on why people say a 9mm with 147gr bullets has less perceived recoil than the same pistol shooting 115gr bullets.
 
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Originally Posted By: billt460
Today's American shooters have evolved into a bunch of pantywaist's. 40 years ago you couldn't find an article that mentioned "recoil" with "9 MM" or ".223". Now they're everywhere.
Yes but the guns are lighter now. even my 20+ year old ruger p90 ( aluminum) has more recoil than a 1911. the composite stuff is even lighter.
 
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Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: billt460
Today's American shooters have evolved into a bunch of pantywaist's. 40 years ago you couldn't find an article that mentioned "recoil" with "9 MM" or ".223". Now they're everywhere.
Yes but the guns are lighter now.
So what? Let's at least be real. 45 years ago the .30-06 and the .270 in light sporters were considered to be mild recoiling guns. Many youngsters got them as a first deer rifle. (Springfield 03-A3's were a dime a dozen on the surplus market back then, and many were sporterized as father son projects). It wasn't until you got into the .30 caliber Magnums that you started reading about "recoil". Now you have people whining about recoil of .223's, and putting muzzle brakes on them. It's absurd.
 
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Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: billt460
Today's American shooters have evolved into a bunch of pantywaist's. 40 years ago you couldn't find an article that mentioned "recoil" with "9 MM" or ".223". Now they're everywhere.
Yes but the guns are lighter now.
So what? Let's at least be real. 45 years ago the .30-06 and the .270 in light sporters were considered to be mild recoiling guns. Many youngsters got them as a first deer rifle. (Springfield 03-A3's were a dime a dozen on the surplus market back then, and many were sporterized as father son projects). It wasn't until you got into the .30 caliber Magnums that you started reading about "recoil". Now you have people whining about recoil of .223's, and putting muzzle brakes on them. It's absurd.
I don't hear people whining about the recoil of a .223, but it is there and a muzzle brake does significantly decrease the amount of jump. I actually prefer to shoot WITHOUT a brake because of the intense muzzle blast and concussion if you're anywhere near a barricade or under a shelter. I only have a brake on my 3 gun rifle to help my shooting.
 
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Originally Posted By: Ws6
Originally Posted By: billt460
Today's American shooters have evolved into a bunch of pantywaist's. 40 years ago you couldn't find an article that mentioned "recoil" with "9 MM" or ".223". Now they're everywhere.
I don't know that I agree with that. The late Elmer Keith, I believe at one point even lamented the nerve damage that he caused shooting heavy caliber revolvers, in his later years. Also, shooters now days both in combat, and competition, are performing at a higher level. Physics is physics, and less recoil can't help but improve rapidly and accurately mixing lead with the target. That said, the margin is so small in 9mm between 115, 124, and 147, that you would have to be performing at a VERY high level to actually note it. https://books.google.com/books?id=T1jgdd...ers&f=false
It's worth mentioning that Mr. Keith(for whom I have tremendous respect and also most of the books he wrote) spent a lot of time carrying a 4" S&W Model 29 as his main side arm. Before he convinced Remington and S&W to make the 44 Magnum, he blew up a couple Colt SAAs in 45 Colt then decided that the design was too weak. That's when he switched over to the 44 Special and started blowing up Triple Locks smile I'll also mention that he developed his own bullet designs and either made or had made molds for them. A lot of bullet makers have fallen into the habit of calling any semi-wadcutter a "Keith Type" bullet, but the true Keith bullet has several defining characteristics. One of the most noticeable ones is meplat that is 70% of the caliber and with a distinctly rounded ogive. These type bullets tend to be among the heaviest available for a given caliber and also pack enough of the weight out front that you can cram even more slow powder behind them. I have a local caster who makes an honest to goodness 168gr 357 Keith Type bullet. In Elmer Keith style, you can load it in 38 special brass and crimp at the crimp groove or load in magnum brass with roll crimp over the edge of the bullet. If you really want to go wild, you can load specifically for an S&W Model 19 and crimp in the crimp groove in the 357 mag brass. That load will sting out of a 4" 19. To answer the question, though, I too am one of those people who feels very little recoil from a 9mm. With that said, with a 147gr bullet loaded to similar energies as its lighter counterparts will have a different recoil. The impulse will be lower so it's more of a push than a "snap." Although of course this isn't a direct comparison, think of shooting a 30-06(or similar) vs a 12 gauge of similar weight and with similar type loads(i.e. hunting vs. target loads). Both will recoil plenty, but the 30-06 is going to be a lot sharper and, IMO, more jarring than a 12 gauge. Maybe I'm a wimp, but I can shoot a 12 gauge all day while making it through a box 30-06 might leave me sore the next day. Of course, I'm not including my friends Garand shooting milsurp M2 ball in the discussion-the Garand weighs a ton, the gas system reduces some recoil, and M2 ball is a lot lighter shooting than hunting loads of 30-06.
 
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Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
I'll also mention that he developed his own bullet designs and either made or had made molds for them. A lot of bullet makers have fallen into the habit of calling any semi-wadcutter a "Keith Type" bullet, but the true Keith bullet has several defining characteristics. One of the most noticeable ones is meplat that is 70% of the caliber and with a distinctly rounded ogive. These type bullets tend to be among the heaviest available for a given caliber and also pack enough of the weight out front that you can cram even more slow powder behind them. I have a local caster who makes an honest to goodness 168gr 357 Keith Type bullet. In Elmer Keith style, you can load it in 38 special brass and crimp at the crimp groove or load in magnum brass with roll crimp over the edge of the bullet. If you really want to go wild, you can load specifically for an S&W Model 19 and crimp in the crimp groove in the 357 mag brass. That load will sting out of a 4" 19.
I have about 100 170gr Keith semi-wadcutters. I ordered them from a guy who makes and sells cast bullets out of Oregon. The load data from Hodgdon calls for a 170gr bullet with 17gr of Lil'Gun for a whopping 1570 fps! Talk about a smack in the hand, that's over 900 ft-lbf of energy from a 7.5" barrel!
 
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Originally Posted By: 94JeepCherokee
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
I'll also mention that he developed his own bullet designs and either made or had made molds for them. A lot of bullet makers have fallen into the habit of calling any semi-wadcutter a "Keith Type" bullet, but the true Keith bullet has several defining characteristics. One of the most noticeable ones is meplat that is 70% of the caliber and with a distinctly rounded ogive. These type bullets tend to be among the heaviest available for a given caliber and also pack enough of the weight out front that you can cram even more slow powder behind them. I have a local caster who makes an honest to goodness 168gr 357 Keith Type bullet. In Elmer Keith style, you can load it in 38 special brass and crimp at the crimp groove or load in magnum brass with roll crimp over the edge of the bullet. If you really want to go wild, you can load specifically for an S&W Model 19 and crimp in the crimp groove in the 357 mag brass. That load will sting out of a 4" 19.
I have about 100 170gr Keith semi-wadcutters. I ordered them from a guy who makes and sells cast bullets out of Oregon. The load data from Hodgdon calls for a 170gr bullet with 17gr of Lil'Gun for a whopping 1570 fps! Talk about a smack in the hand, that's over 900 ft-lbf of energy from a 7.5" barrel!
I think that the Lyman manual(or maybe the cast bullet handbook) lists in the neighborhood of 14gr 2400. Working from memory, I think Elmer used 14.5gr. I need to play with 296 and/or AA#9 under these bullet-I mention those two because I have them on hand, and also I have a lot of familiarity with 296. The 2400 load I mentioned above runs around 1500 fps from my 8 3/8" model 27. Recoil is tolerable in that gun, but still definitely there. BTW, for the guy who said that handguns don't have any recoil-I know this is all subjective, but I wonder if he's shot many higher powered handguns-and especially with true full power loads(not the watered down commercial loads). Also, I'd wonder if he's shot any smaller/lighter guns. A 4" model 19 can be rough with full power 357 Mag loads. My only 44 mag is a 4" S&W 629 "Mountain Gun." The "mountain gun" line is distinguished by having a thin, tapered barrel rather than the "heavy barrel" associated with guns like the regular 29/629. This takes a lot of weight off the muzzle and the consequence is a lot more muzzle flip. Suffice to say it's a totally different experience than something like the 6 1/2" 29-2(AKA the Dirty Harry) that a friend has. I finally put a set of pachs on the Mountain Gun(something I never thought I'd do to any gun I owned) because the factory Hogues left the backstrap uncovered and free to hit the web of your hand. That made it a fair bit more comfortable to shoot. Modern scandium frame revolvers are so light that they can be downright scary with magnum loads. Another friend has a snub 329(44 mag scandium). He's only fired one magnum round through it himself. We once watched a "tough guy" unload one(I think we were shooting up some old reloads that were 13.5gr Blue Dot under a 240gr softpoint) and he basically lost feeling in his hand for the rest of the day. 45 Colt is another fun one. I usually load a 250gr round nose over some PB powder(I don't recall the number off the top of my head), although I'll have to figure something else out when I'm out of PB. That is a nice, pleasant shooting load out of both my SAA reproduction and my Blackhawk. Going up a notch, I load black powder every once in a great while. I think old balloon head brass holds about 40gr, while I can get only get about 37gr of FFF Goex in most modern cases. I've been told that one can't overload black powder, but having the case full and the charge compressed is key. I made a thrower by cutting a case to the correct height and soldering a handle on it. In any case, this is a surprisingly potent load, especially out of the SAA. There's also a Blackhawk only section in most manuals, and most of them rival 44 mag for performance. Right now, I have some made up with 26gr of 296 under a 240gr Hornady XTP. They make a head-turning book at the range. I was taught with SAAs to "let it roll" during recoil, but have to keep a firm grip on the Blackhawk with full power loads. It's also wearing a set of pacs.
 
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