14 Jeep GC 5.7, PP 5w20 & 0w20

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Here is a log of 3 UOA with both PP 5w-20 and 0w-20.

The second column should read around 6,391 miles not the misprinted 4,391.


Background of this vehicle.

Primarily used around town for short trips. Typical day is drive to the gym 2 miles away. Drive 2 miles back to home. Drive 3.5 miles to work. Drive 3.5 miles home. With that being said on the weekends I drive typically 50+ miles and the oil gets up to operating temperature. There are some highway trips on this change. I would say 35% highway miles and 65% city. Oil filter for the two most recent changes was M1 and prior to that was Motorcraft FL820s or Mopar cant recall. There is a factory oil cooler hence the trending down level of copper.

Notes about this oil change. This was run during the Dallas TX winter right up to the beginning of our summer. I was a little quick on the draw for collecting this sample. I let maybe a quart or 2 tops out before collecting. Its a 7 quart system.

Hoping you guys can shed some light on this most recent change. I'm a little disappointed in the elevated levels of Iron. I don't think its anything to be worried about but was wishing to see an overall better UOA with the 0w-20 vs 5w-20 with the talk I've seen of better base stocks used in the 0w vs 5w. Not sure what's up with the Chromium all of sudden showing up. Is this from piston ring wear or could this be present in a VOA of PP 0w-20? Anything else I should be concerned about? I was able to snag up 3 jugs of PP 0w-20 on clearance at Walmart for 13$ each and would like to use it instead of going back to 5w-20.

Learned a lot lurking around here so excited to see your guys comments.
 
The presence of chromium and increased PPM per mile of iron indicate some sort of abrasive wear potentially occurring, though silicon isn't really elevated, which is often the case when the cause is dirt ingress.

I would thoroughly go over your air intake tract plumbing and make sure your air filter is 100% sealed.
 
Are you sure these oils are xxw-20? The used oil viscosity is higher than virgin 20-weight Platinum, which is odd. Oil normally will shear and lose viscosity and only subsequently thicken much later as it oxidizes, or at least that’s my understanding. If this really is 20 weight the oil may have exceeded its useful life despite the encouraging TBN result.

Given the wear metal and viscosity trends I’d try shortening the OCI to see if that made a difference.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The presence of chromium and increased PPM per mile of iron indicate some sort of abrasive wear potentially occurring, though silicon isn't really elevated, which is often the case when the cause is dirt ingress.

I would thoroughly go over your air intake tract plumbing and make sure your air filter is 100% sealed.


I will say I have a AFE Pro Dry S filter in there. It has been in since the vehicle has been new. There is also a Catch Can in place that has been there since new. The silicone levels look OK to me and I do go in there and tap the filter clean maybe once a oil change. Anything else that could cause the elevated levels of Cr?

Originally Posted By: Danh
Are you sure these oils are xxw-20? The used oil viscosity is higher than virgin 20-weight Platinum, which is odd. Oil normally will shear and lose viscosity and only subsequently thicken much later as it oxidizes, or at least that’s my understanding. If this really is 20 weight the oil may have exceeded its useful life despite the encouraging TBN result.

Given the wear metal and viscosity trends I’d try shortening the OCI to see if that made a difference.


Yes I thought it looked like it thickened up a bit too. Its for sure 20w oil as I change it myself. Do you think this could be because of my short trip habits? Cut back the changes to 5K. I guess I won't really know unless I perform another UOA at the 5k mark. I don't know about the Tin coming down as well. I'm hoping to find more UOA of the 5.7 Hemi I guess to see how mine compares.
 
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The presence of chromium and increased PPM per mile of iron indicate some sort of abrasive wear potentially occurring, though silicon isn't really elevated, which is often the case when the cause is dirt ingress.

I would thoroughly go over your air intake tract plumbing and make sure your air filter is 100% sealed.


I will say I have a AFE Pro Dry S filter in there. It has been in since the vehicle has been new. There is also a Catch Can in place that has been there since new. The silicone levels look OK to me and I do go in there and tap the filter clean maybe once a oil change. Anything else that could cause the elevated levels of Cr?



I have read on here it is not recommended to tap filters in order to clean them. Also, not sure if you are familiar but the cleaning looks a little more involved than just an occasional tap.
I did a quick search and seen this filter needs an oiling as well after a thorough cleaning.
 
NEVER use a thinner oil than recommended.
And you live in a HOT climate in the summer so you are going the wrong direction on visosity.
You should be running 0w-30 minimum or even 5w-30
in the summer in Texas.
 
Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The presence of chromium and increased PPM per mile of iron indicate some sort of abrasive wear potentially occurring, though silicon isn't really elevated, which is often the case when the cause is dirt ingress.

I would thoroughly go over your air intake tract plumbing and make sure your air filter is 100% sealed.


I will say I have a AFE Pro Dry S filter in there. It has been in since the vehicle has been new. There is also a Catch Can in place that has been there since new. The silicone levels look OK to me and I do go in there and tap the filter clean maybe once a oil change. Anything else that could cause the elevated levels of Cr?



I have read on here it is not recommended to tap filters in order to clean them. Also, not sure if you are familiar but the cleaning looks a little more involved than just an occasional tap.
I did a quick search and seen this filter needs an oiling as well after a thorough cleaning.




I should have clarified that I have cleaned it but I can't recall if I've done it once or twice. Either way I need to clean it again so thanks for the informative videos. I have the cleaner and it will give me an excuse to drive my wife's S4 around while it dries
grin.gif
I'll stop tapping out the heavy deposits if it is indeed not good for it. I will say a ton of dirt gets dislodged when I do it.


Originally Posted By: ENGINEER60
NEVER use a thinner oil than recommended.
And you live in a HOT climate in the summer so you are going the wrong direction on visosity.
You should be running 0w-30 minimum or even 5w-30
in the summer in Texas.


The spec for this vehicle is Chryslers MS-6395 which both the PP 0w-20 and 5w-20 carry.

Iron and Chromium ticked up this round. The flip side is that Tin and all other metals came down. I just checked the PDF for 0w-20 and the kinematic viscosity index at 100c is 8.6 so maybe it didn't thicken up that much really?


https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/...I_Plat_0W20.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The presence of chromium and increased PPM per mile of iron indicate some sort of abrasive wear potentially occurring, though silicon isn't really elevated, which is often the case when the cause is dirt ingress.

I would thoroughly go over your air intake tract plumbing and make sure your air filter is 100% sealed.


I will say I have a AFE Pro Dry S filter in there. It has been in since the vehicle has been new. There is also a Catch Can in place that has been there since new. The silicone levels look OK to me and I do go in there and tap the filter clean maybe once a oil change. Anything else that could cause the elevated levels of Cr?

Originally Posted By: Danh
Are you sure these oils are xxw-20? The used oil viscosity is higher than virgin 20-weight Platinum, which is odd. Oil normally will shear and lose viscosity and only subsequently thicken much later as it oxidizes, or at least that’s my understanding. If this really is 20 weight the oil may have exceeded its useful life despite the encouraging TBN result.

Given the wear metal and viscosity trends I’d try shortening the OCI to see if that made a difference.


Yes I thought it looked like it thickened up a bit too. Its for sure 20w oil as I change it myself. Do you think this could be because of my short trip habits? Cut back the changes to 5K. I guess I won't really know unless I perform another UOA at the 5k mark. I don't know about the Tin coming down as well. I'm hoping to find more UOA of the 5.7 Hemi I guess to see how mine compares.



Do you still have the factory airbox in place? If not, do you have it around? I'd do a run with a factory air filter and see if it brings those numbers down.
 
Originally Posted By: Vigg
I just checked the PDF for 0w-20 and the kinematic viscosity index at 100c is 8.6 so maybe it didn't thicken up that much really?


https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/...I_Plat_0W20.pdf

Looking at the reasonably good residual TBN of 3.3 indicating continuing serviceability of this used oil sample,I would consider this viscosity thickening of 5% as not being detrimental and acceptable.
I wouldn't consider shortening OCI.
 
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: irv
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The presence of chromium and increased PPM per mile of iron indicate some sort of abrasive wear potentially occurring, though silicon isn't really elevated, which is often the case when the cause is dirt ingress.

I would thoroughly go over your air intake tract plumbing and make sure your air filter is 100% sealed.


I will say I have a AFE Pro Dry S filter in there. It has been in since the vehicle has been new. There is also a Catch Can in place that has been there since new. The silicone levels look OK to me and I do go in there and tap the filter clean maybe once a oil change. Anything else that could cause the elevated levels of Cr?



I have read on here it is not recommended to tap filters in order to clean them. Also, not sure if you are familiar but the cleaning looks a little more involved than just an occasional tap.
I did a quick search and seen this filter needs an oiling as well after a thorough cleaning.




I should have clarified that I have cleaned it but I can't recall if I've done it once or twice. Either way I need to clean it again so thanks for the informative videos. I have the cleaner and it will give me an excuse to drive my wife's S4 around while it dries
grin.gif
I'll stop tapping out the heavy deposits if it is indeed not good for it. I will say a ton of dirt gets dislodged when I do it.


Originally Posted By: ENGINEER60
NEVER use a thinner oil than recommended.
And you live in a HOT climate in the summer so you are going the wrong direction on visosity.
You should be running 0w-30 minimum or even 5w-30
in the summer in Texas.


The spec for this vehicle is Chryslers MS-6395 which both the PP 0w-20 and 5w-20 carry.

Iron and Chromium ticked up this round. The flip side is that Tin and all other metals came down. I just checked the PDF for 0w-20 and the kinematic viscosity index at 100c is 8.6 so maybe it didn't thicken up that much really?


https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/products/...I_Plat_0W20.pdf


I don’t claim to be an authority on this subject, but after looking at really a lot of UOAs I can say oil thickening is quite rare and seems to only occur after a long OCI. It’s true your oil didn’t thicken a lot, but keep in mind 1) the non dexos1Gen2 Platinum used in your first 2 oil changes is thinner than your last and 2) with its long timing chains your Jeep engine should be very, very good at shearing oil to a lower viscosity.

So I still think these samples have been used too long. And while TBN is important it only describes the oil’s ability to neutralize acid. A satisfactory TBN can co-exist with oxidized oil. Try a shorter interval and see what happens: it’s the cheapest diagnostic tool you’ll find.
 
Originally Posted By: Danh
with its long timing chains your Jeep engine should be very, very good at shearing oil to a lower viscosity.


The 5.7L HEMI is a pushrod engine, it has a small, single timing chain.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Danh
with its long timing chains your Jeep engine should be very, very good at shearing oil to a lower viscosity.


The 5.7L HEMI is a pushrod engine, it has a small, single timing chain.


Thought it was the 3.6 V-6. My mistake.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The presence of chromium and increased PPM per mile of iron indicate some sort of abrasive wear potentially occurring, though silicon isn't really elevated, which is often the case when the cause is dirt ingress.

I would thoroughly go over your air intake tract plumbing and make sure your air filter is 100% sealed.


I will say I have a AFE Pro Dry S filter in there. It has been in since the vehicle has been new. There is also a Catch Can in place that has been there since new. The silicone levels look OK to me and I do go in there and tap the filter clean maybe once a oil change. Anything else that could cause the elevated levels of Cr?

Originally Posted By: Danh
Are you sure these oils are xxw-20? The used oil viscosity is higher than virgin 20-weight Platinum, which is odd. Oil normally will shear and lose viscosity and only subsequently thicken much later as it oxidizes, or at least that’s my understanding. If this really is 20 weight the oil may have exceeded its useful life despite the encouraging TBN result.

Given the wear metal and viscosity trends I’d try shortening the OCI to see if that made a difference.


Yes I thought it looked like it thickened up a bit too. Its for sure 20w oil as I change it myself. Do you think this could be because of my short trip habits? Cut back the changes to 5K. I guess I won't really know unless I perform another UOA at the 5k mark. I don't know about the Tin coming down as well. I'm hoping to find more UOA of the 5.7 Hemi I guess to see how mine compares.



Do you still have the factory airbox in place? If not, do you have it around? I'd do a run with a factory air filter and see if it brings those numbers down.


Yes I still have the stock factory sealed airbox in place. This is just a simple drop in replacement filter not a complete new kit. I'm just wondering if the filter is the problem or if this motor just doesn't like this oil make up as much. Comparing the 0w to 5w they do vary in additives.

I'm more concerned with the presence of Chromium as this is a piston ring material. I guess I'm just wondering if .5 ppm per 1000 miles is anything to be worried about.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The presence of chromium and increased PPM per mile of iron indicate some sort of abrasive wear potentially occurring, though silicon isn't really elevated, which is often the case when the cause is dirt ingress.

I would thoroughly go over your air intake tract plumbing and make sure your air filter is 100% sealed.


I will say I have a AFE Pro Dry S filter in there. It has been in since the vehicle has been new. There is also a Catch Can in place that has been there since new. The silicone levels look OK to me and I do go in there and tap the filter clean maybe once a oil change. Anything else that could cause the elevated levels of Cr?

Originally Posted By: Danh
Are you sure these oils are xxw-20? The used oil viscosity is higher than virgin 20-weight Platinum, which is odd. Oil normally will shear and lose viscosity and only subsequently thicken much later as it oxidizes, or at least that’s my understanding. If this really is 20 weight the oil may have exceeded its useful life despite the encouraging TBN result.

Given the wear metal and viscosity trends I’d try shortening the OCI to see if that made a difference.


Yes I thought it looked like it thickened up a bit too. Its for sure 20w oil as I change it myself. Do you think this could be because of my short trip habits? Cut back the changes to 5K. I guess I won't really know unless I perform another UOA at the 5k mark. I don't know about the Tin coming down as well. I'm hoping to find more UOA of the 5.7 Hemi I guess to see how mine compares.



Do you still have the factory airbox in place? If not, do you have it around? I'd do a run with a factory air filter and see if it brings those numbers down.


I'm not saying his filter is his problem but the more I read about aftermarket air filters and all their claims, the more I think they are nothing but a waste of time and money.
I'm sure they have their place in racing applications where a 10th here or there makes a difference but for a daily driver that will likely never have it's engine rebuilt annually, or sooner, they, imo, should never be used.
 
Originally Posted By: Vigg

Yes I still have the stock factory sealed airbox in place. This is just a simple drop in replacement filter not a complete new kit. I'm just wondering if the filter is the problem or if this motor just doesn't like this oil make up as much. Comparing the 0w to 5w they do vary in additives.

I'm more concerned with the presence of Chromium as this is a piston ring material. I guess I'm just wondering if .5 ppm per 1000 miles is anything to be worried about.


Put in a factory filter, make sure all the mating surfaces are clean, and don't open the airbox at all during the OCI, or even the next one. See what your next sample shows.

Chromium is usually ring material, which is from abrasive wear (again, usually) which is from dirt ingestion.

Let's rule out an air intake tract leak by seeing if iron and chromium start trending back down with a paper filter in there.
 
I would run a 5000 miles interval and get another UOA. Could show if the back end of the OCI is giving you the undesired results. It would be surprising to see the oil thickening in that amount of mileage.
 
Originally Posted By: JoelB
I would run a 5000 miles interval and get another UOA. Could show if the back end of the OCI is giving you the undesired results. It would be surprising to see the oil thickening in that amount of mileage.


I think this is what I would like to do. I'm going to give the filter a real good cleaning with the proper cleaning solution, clean around the box and make sure it gets a good seal and leave it alone. Considering I picked the oil up for cheap and can change it for around $20 including a filter, I have no problem dumping it early for piece of mind.

I know others are bashing the filter but it was in during the previous oil changes which returned good results so we know the filter can properly filter the incoming air. If the silicone levels were super elevated I would toss it and put in a factory one which I would have to buy.

I will throw this out there as well as I just remembered this last night. For about a month I thought I had a failing fuel pump. The Jeep took an excessive amount of time to crank before firing up. Normal would be like 3 cranks and then this was extended about double. I fill up at the same station as its close to home. One day I thought to randomly fill up at a different station. The long cranking went away and I haven't filled up at the old station in fear they had/have bad gas.

Could this have lead to excess wear?

I'm trying to nail down if this motor just doesn't like PP 0w-20 or its the air filter (which has been in for all other fills) or possibly the month long time of excess crank time had to do with the uptick in Iron and Chromium.
 
Your 2016 analysis also showed higher silicon. Take a look inside the intake plumbing, see how clean it is.
 
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: JoelB
I would run a 5000 miles interval and get another UOA. Could show if the back end of the OCI is giving you the undesired results. It would be surprising to see the oil thickening in that amount of mileage.


I think this is what I would like to do. I'm going to give the filter a real good cleaning with the proper cleaning solution, clean around the box and make sure it gets a good seal and leave it alone. Considering I picked the oil up for cheap and can change it for around $20 including a filter, I have no problem dumping it early for piece of mind.

I know others are bashing the filter but it was in during the previous oil changes which returned good results so we know the filter can properly filter the incoming air. If the silicone levels were super elevated I would toss it and put in a factory one which I would have to buy.

I will throw this out there as well as I just remembered this last night. For about a month I thought I had a failing fuel pump. The Jeep took an excessive amount of time to crank before firing up. Normal would be like 3 cranks and then this was extended about double. I fill up at the same station as its close to home. One day I thought to randomly fill up at a different station. The long cranking went away and I haven't filled up at the old station in fear they had/have bad gas.

Could this have lead to excess wear?

I'm trying to nail down if this motor just doesn't like PP 0w-20 or its the air filter (which has been in for all other fills) or possibly the month long time of excess crank time had to do with the uptick in Iron and Chromium.


There would be less discussion about the filter if this was another brand of oil.
An Amsoil SS run if staying with 20’s … or PP in a 30 might help …
 
Originally Posted By: Vigg
Originally Posted By: JoelB
I would run a 5000 miles interval and get another UOA. Could show if the back end of the OCI is giving you the undesired results. It would be surprising to see the oil thickening in that amount of mileage.


I think this is what I would like to do. I'm going to give the filter a real good cleaning with the proper cleaning solution, clean around the box and make sure it gets a good seal and leave it alone. Considering I picked the oil up for cheap and can change it for around $20 including a filter, I have no problem dumping it early for piece of mind.

I know others are bashing the filter but it was in during the previous oil changes which returned good results so we know the filter can properly filter the incoming air.


I am not bashing your air filter, they're just something I don't care for after seeing many tests that show they are great at moving more air, but are less than adequate at filtering it.

I had a guy once who was touting his K&N who said it stayed way cleaner than his stocker. I thanked him for proving my point.
33.gif
 
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