Don't forget the fueling programme on NA FSI is different than EU to meet PZEV or ULEV for low NOx. Rich.
10k.....no friggin way......not in my Passat
- Thread starter BigJohn
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Theres more than one VW whos has seized due
to clogging in the oilpump screen around here. They
tend to do this at ca 11-12000 mil/75k miles. Funny thing is
that all warranties and insurances last to 10000 mil/ 62,5 k miles....
Typical oci´s r5ecommended here is 2000 mil/12,5k miles
with a movment uppvards to 3000/18,7 , this is obviously
a sales promoting thing and not an engineering decision.
Long maintance intervals sells cars! But for the second or third owner....no good.
to clogging in the oilpump screen around here. They
tend to do this at ca 11-12000 mil/75k miles. Funny thing is
that all warranties and insurances last to 10000 mil/ 62,5 k miles....
Typical oci´s r5ecommended here is 2000 mil/12,5k miles
with a movment uppvards to 3000/18,7 , this is obviously
a sales promoting thing and not an engineering decision.
Long maintance intervals sells cars! But for the second or third owner....no good.
GC was removed from sale in Australia after problems and VW engines were involved. A fair while ago though.
Actually a few years earlier in Audi's and '98 in Passats .
Originally Posted By: BigJohn
I just dumped the GC that had been in my 2009 Passat for 4,700 miles (4 months) and although hot, it was a nasty, pitch black concoction that seems far too thick for a 0w30. There is no way in [censored], I will do the 10K VW recommended OCI's.
Welcome to VW's marketing strategy....less maintenance required equals more sales. lol. I'd personally change it at 5K.
I just dumped the GC that had been in my 2009 Passat for 4,700 miles (4 months) and although hot, it was a nasty, pitch black concoction that seems far too thick for a 0w30. There is no way in [censored], I will do the 10K VW recommended OCI's.
Welcome to VW's marketing strategy....less maintenance required equals more sales. lol. I'd personally change it at 5K.
Originally Posted By: tig1
I don't have a clue about VWs, but from what you guys are talking about, and the very poor service a good friend is getting from his 04 VW, I wouldn't have one of those pieces of Bleep.
LOL. Veedubs are good cars, but their quality can be splotchy though. Luck of the draw if you get a "bad" one or "good" one. With that said, in the past month I have gotten a catalytic converter warranty extension and sunroof drain inspection/repair notice from VW, so they are trying to improve their "quality" image.
I don't have a clue about VWs, but from what you guys are talking about, and the very poor service a good friend is getting from his 04 VW, I wouldn't have one of those pieces of Bleep.
LOL. Veedubs are good cars, but their quality can be splotchy though. Luck of the draw if you get a "bad" one or "good" one. With that said, in the past month I have gotten a catalytic converter warranty extension and sunroof drain inspection/repair notice from VW, so they are trying to improve their "quality" image.
Originally Posted By: pavelow
so they are trying to improve their "quality" image.
That's a good point. To be fair, they stepped up big time in extending the warranty on the DSG tranny to 10years/100k miles. They could have buried their head in the sand ala Toyota's approach. VW is such an enigmatic company. Their U.S. dealers are very ignorant in most cases but their cars are great fun. They need to be maintained and as with any car, owners should be aware of design weak spots.
Most importantly IMO owners should educate themselves on the weak spots and on what proactive maintenance should be done (true of any car really).
so they are trying to improve their "quality" image.
That's a good point. To be fair, they stepped up big time in extending the warranty on the DSG tranny to 10years/100k miles. They could have buried their head in the sand ala Toyota's approach. VW is such an enigmatic company. Their U.S. dealers are very ignorant in most cases but their cars are great fun. They need to be maintained and as with any car, owners should be aware of design weak spots.
Most importantly IMO owners should educate themselves on the weak spots and on what proactive maintenance should be done (true of any car really).
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Originally Posted By: saaber1
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Quote:
Hey that's great. I'm sure that is exactly how the owner of the car pictured above felt.
It's the intake manifold. More frequent oil changes will not affect these deposits because the reason these deposits form is the absence of fuel diluting them.
Tell that to Dyson and the other experts (including the FAQ posted by Penzoil on BITOG) who say that fuel-diluted/sheared and volatile oil has a lot to do with those deposits.
This is one reason why I speculate that changing the oil too often in these engines isn't always a good thing. There are going to be volatile components in all oils. The more often you change it, the more volatiles get processed. The fuel dilution will be identical over the same mile span.
That is, changing the oil more often should make it worse.
Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Quote:
Hey that's great. I'm sure that is exactly how the owner of the car pictured above felt.
It's the intake manifold. More frequent oil changes will not affect these deposits because the reason these deposits form is the absence of fuel diluting them.
Tell that to Dyson and the other experts (including the FAQ posted by Penzoil on BITOG) who say that fuel-diluted/sheared and volatile oil has a lot to do with those deposits.
This is one reason why I speculate that changing the oil too often in these engines isn't always a good thing. There are going to be volatile components in all oils. The more often you change it, the more volatiles get processed. The fuel dilution will be identical over the same mile span.
That is, changing the oil more often should make it worse.
I read Dyson's comment to be regarding wear control. I think he was saying that oil X was only providing acceptable wear control up to 1000 miles or so based on testing in a DI BMW. I don't think he was saying to change your oil every 1000 miles, rather I think he was saying use a different oil in these demanding DI engines.
In terms of valve deposits, I think he was talking about the breakdown of the oil due to fuel dilution and the subsequent volatility of the oil. If you look at the flashpoints in the database they are very low within a very short time. Again I don't read him to be saying "change your oil every 1000 miles" here at all. More like X oil is sheared heavily and very volatile by X miles. Again another indication that a more robust oil is called for. All of the above is my interpretation.
In terms of valve deposits, I think he was talking about the breakdown of the oil due to fuel dilution and the subsequent volatility of the oil. If you look at the flashpoints in the database they are very low within a very short time. Again I don't read him to be saying "change your oil every 1000 miles" here at all. More like X oil is sheared heavily and very volatile by X miles. Again another indication that a more robust oil is called for. All of the above is my interpretation.
Originally Posted By: pavelow
BigJohn said:
OP here.....
I know that 95% of the information on the VW engines in the past few years is the FSI engine. I have the TSI. I don't know what the differences will be in regard to sludging and simply, how tough the engines are on oils. I am also accepting the fact that some oils will be better for DI engines than others.
This thread isn't about throwing any oil under the bus. As I mentioned earlier, my comments and concerns are about the OCI recommendations from VW.....not a debate about an oil.
Good point earlier from someone about severe service. The way I drive, I suppose I qualify. (By the way, I am freakishly concerned about the engine being fully heated up before to stomp on the throttle.)
I highly regard Gary A.....but I gotta question Gary's point about volatile components and shorter OCI's. I think that would come into play if one changed the oil every 1k miles, but I don't buy it for 5k OCI's.....rather than 10K OCI's. I even wonder if it is a good idea to change every 3,333 miles. (Doesn't Subaru recommend 3,500 mile OCI's for their boxers?)
Regardless, I am comfortable with 5k OCI's based on my driving habits and that is what I will stick with until I am convinced differently by good hard data.
I know that 95% of the information on the VW engines in the past few years is the FSI engine. I have the TSI. I don't know what the differences will be in regard to sludging and simply, how tough the engines are on oils. I am also accepting the fact that some oils will be better for DI engines than others.
This thread isn't about throwing any oil under the bus. As I mentioned earlier, my comments and concerns are about the OCI recommendations from VW.....not a debate about an oil.
Good point earlier from someone about severe service. The way I drive, I suppose I qualify. (By the way, I am freakishly concerned about the engine being fully heated up before to stomp on the throttle.)
I highly regard Gary A.....but I gotta question Gary's point about volatile components and shorter OCI's. I think that would come into play if one changed the oil every 1k miles, but I don't buy it for 5k OCI's.....rather than 10K OCI's. I even wonder if it is a good idea to change every 3,333 miles. (Doesn't Subaru recommend 3,500 mile OCI's for their boxers?)
Regardless, I am comfortable with 5k OCI's based on my driving habits and that is what I will stick with until I am convinced differently by good hard data.
Originally Posted By: sbergman27
Originally Posted By: pavelow
Originally Posted By: pavelow
BigJohn said:
Originally Posted By: pavelow
VW figures most of the people that buy their cars are going to get rid of them before the magical 100K mark, so they won't see the "consequences" of long oil drain intervals and other "damaged" parts from all of VW's long service intervals.
Again, this is a completely nonsensical theory. Where's the motivation for them to recommend that their cars be maintained in a way which will result in early failure compared to those of their competitors? Sticking their necks out to recommend 10k OCI's when a 5K OCI would be better for a particular model and service type makes no business sense. They would be giving up maintenance revenue in order to give themselves a big black eye regarding perceived product quality. It would be a lose - lose situation for them any way you look at it. Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that their poor recommendations don't hit them with additional warranty costs. (And that has, of course, not been established.)
I'm not saying that this or that engine may or may not need more frequent OCI's than 10k. I'm saying that no manufacturer has motivation
VW figures most of the people that buy their cars are going to get rid of them before the magical 100K mark, so they won't see the "consequences" of long oil drain intervals and other "damaged" parts from all of VW's long service intervals.
Again, this is a completely nonsensical theory. Where's the motivation for them to recommend that their cars be maintained in a way which will result in early failure compared to those of their competitors? Sticking their necks out to recommend 10k OCI's when a 5K OCI would be better for a particular model and service type makes no business sense. They would be giving up maintenance revenue in order to give themselves a big black eye regarding perceived product quality. It would be a lose - lose situation for them any way you look at it. Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that their poor recommendations don't hit them with additional warranty costs. (And that has, of course, not been established.)
I'm not saying that this or that engine may or may not need more frequent OCI's than 10k. I'm saying that no manufacturer has motivation
Those of us that do own VWs know that VW's maintenance recommendations are not in favor of long term longevity. For example their INFAMOUS sealed automatic transmissions that according to VW do not require servicing. TOTAL B.S! Those of us that know better know to change the fluid at 50K MAX if you want the trans to live a long life. Follow VW's advice and that trans will likely die prematurely like many have. 10K oil changes? 100K antifreeze changes? Why do they do this? To sell cars. People don't want to spend maintenance $$$$$ working on them.....they want to drive them....and most that do buy them don't keep them past 3-5 years. A typical lease is 3 years and if you lease, you are not going to spend any extra $$$$ on the car. Say what you will, but long maintenance intervals are indeed a selling tool to move cars out of the lots. Say you keep your VW 3 years...that means only 3 oil changes and maybe an air filter....and 0 maintenance on anything else. Keep it 5 years and that's 5 oil changes and maybe a set of plugs (depending on engine) and a maybe a couple of air filters if you follow what VW says. How is that not appealing to somebody looking for low cost of ownership? How does that not make business sense to VW because VW makes a bunch more on car sales than they do on oil changes and air filters and other basic remedial maintenance. VW makes their big service dollars on major repairs like engine replacements, transmission replacements, brake jobs, etc. Yes brake jobs....ever price a brake job from VW? $400 for just one "axle"...so that's just shy of a G note with tax to do the front and rear. I'm not going to argue with you, I'm just passing on opinion that has been formed after owning various VWs since 01 and browsing the vwvortex forums for just as long. Best advice I can give to those that want to keep their VW as long as possible or past 100K, cut the maintenance intervals down and ignore what VW recommends because your wallet and car will be better off.
Originally Posted By: pavelow
Those of us that do own VWs know that VW's maintenance recommendations are not in favor of long term longevity. For example their INFAMOUS sealed automatic transmissions that according to VW do not require servicing. TOTAL B.S! Those of us that know better know to change the fluid at 50K MAX if you want the trans to live a long life.
You forgot to include the link to the statistical data that you have to back that up. While VW reliability, in general, is lackluster, here is the general reliability data for the Passat from CR. The scale is from 1 to 5, with 5 being the best:
Transmission major:
2000:4
2001:4
2002:5
2003:5
2004:4
2005:4
2006:5
2007:5
2008:5
2009:5
Transmission Minor:
2000:4
2001:4
2002:5
2003:4
2004:5
2005:3
2006:2
2007:4
2008:5
2009:5
Presumably, most owners are not in your circle of "in the know" folks regarding VW's special maintenance requirements which are not reflected in VW's service recommendations. And their transmissions do alright.
Those of us that do own VWs know that VW's maintenance recommendations are not in favor of long term longevity. For example their INFAMOUS sealed automatic transmissions that according to VW do not require servicing. TOTAL B.S! Those of us that know better know to change the fluid at 50K MAX if you want the trans to live a long life.
You forgot to include the link to the statistical data that you have to back that up. While VW reliability, in general, is lackluster, here is the general reliability data for the Passat from CR. The scale is from 1 to 5, with 5 being the best:
Transmission major:
2000:4
2001:4
2002:5
2003:5
2004:4
2005:4
2006:5
2007:5
2008:5
2009:5
Transmission Minor:
2000:4
2001:4
2002:5
2003:4
2004:5
2005:3
2006:2
2007:4
2008:5
2009:5
Presumably, most owners are not in your circle of "in the know" folks regarding VW's special maintenance requirements which are not reflected in VW's service recommendations. And their transmissions do alright.
Originally Posted By: pavelow
Real world info for you....from actual VW owners, not from CR.
Nifty! A collection of anecdotes. I'm going to print them out and have them permaplaqued.
Real world info for you....from actual VW owners, not from CR.
Nifty! A collection of anecdotes. I'm going to print them out and have them permaplaqued.
Which is all that CR's data is.
Ed
Ed
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Which is all that CR's data is.
Please elaborate.
-Steve
Which is all that CR's data is.
Please elaborate.
-Steve
They send out a survey for people fill it out and send back. There is no verification of the data, or even if you own the car you filled out a survey for. It's just a bunch of people expressing their opinions.
Ed
Ed
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