1.8 Turbo with T6 seeing Silver in UOA

[SavetheRimBrake]

Hey guys, so I have an 04 Miata turbo. Engine is custom built, forged internals, nice Borg Warner EFR6258 Turbo. It has 4,500 miles on the engine, and this is my second Blackstone analysis (first also in this shot). Generally it looks like things are improving with the metal contents of the oil, but there is still Silver showing. Blackstone said some engine bearings use Silver, but I called ACL, the manufacturer of my bearings, and they told me their Race bearings do not contain any silver in them. I am just trying to figure out where it could be coming from, and if it's something I should worry about, or just leave it alone? Thank you guys!

Here is a list of the aftermarket internals in the engine as well as the turbo system, perhaps some of these have some silver somewhere. I'm only listing the components inside of the engine that are somehow connected to the oil system.


Eagle H-Beam Rods

Wiseco 83.5mm 8.5:1 pistons
Boundary Engineering Street/Strip oil pump billet

ARP head/main studs

ACL Race bearings

Supertech Valve Spring kit

VICS delete

EGR block plate

BorgWarner EFR6258 turbo -1500

AN-4 feed

AN-10 drain

 

[Kuato]

Not sure where it is coming from, but your engine is still new. Silver is less than 1/2 and I bet it will lessen more in the next UOA.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

Yea I'll keep an eye on it. Also having debates on whether the T6 is the best thing to run, but a lot of guys running turbo gasoline engines locally use it. Some have started using the Valvoline VR1 lately. I'm happy with the overall break-in of the engine, metal contents, and how it sounds. Just can't figure for the life of me where the silver is from.

Here is the layering of the bearings.

I can't have that much wear on them since my nickel went from 1ppm to 0ppm and the nickel layer is not that deep under that overlay

 

[RoadRaceJosh]

I'd ask Borg Warner about the turbo bearings.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

Ceramic bearings. Called BW, they said no silver used there

 

[CharlesE]

Cleanneon98:

I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone on my MSM with a built engine and T6 recently. The engine has only around 10 thousand miles on it. The data in the column with 211,000 miles is the most current data. The 183k miles column is from before the final build. --Trust me don't ask!!

The results look pretty similar, with the exception of the silver. Note that I ran 8,000 miles before the change. That may affect some of the levels.

Any chance the AN plumbing was silver soldered?


MI/HR on Oil 8,000
UNIT / LOCATION AVERAGES 150
MI/HR on Unit 211,000 183,618
Sample Date 8/20/2015 3/15/2014
Make Up Oil Added

ALUMINUM 4 3 1
CHROMIUM 1 1 0
IRON 12 9 6
COPPER 2 2 1
LEAD 5 3 4
TIN 3 1 0
MOLYBDENUM 80 125 230
NICKEL 0 0 0
MANGANESE 0 0 0
SILVER 1 0 0
TITANIUM 0 0 0
POTASSIUM 7 4 0
BORON 26 87 91
SILICON 11 16 27
SODIUM 8 6 5
CALCIUM 984 2298 2364
MAGNESIUM 1138 299 8
PHOSPHORUS 1028 859 809
ZINC 1305 1022 1046
BARIUM 0 0 0

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

Charles, awesome to see another MSM on the boards. Your overall metal levels are lower than mine. What were your oil change intervals after the build? Did you run the first oil for a bit and just drain it to be safe? We did

10mi change
200mi change
2000mi change with UOA
4000mi change with UOA

Reason I ask is even though you run a lot longer intervals, if you did enough changes before your most recent one, you might have dumped out the stuff I still have lingering. I drive this car 3000-4000 miles a year, so I change oil at 2,000 just because I don't really care about saving $40 a year, I'd rather know I got fresh oil

Asked my mechanic if he could think where the silver came from, he jokingly said he's been missing one of his bracelets, but then told me he doesn't recall anywhere it was used during the build. He had the car the whole time.

 

[901Memphis]

All looks fine to me, keep it up

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

I should add that the most recent oil analysis also includes 300 miles of road tuning and 2 hours of dyno tuning to over 300 horsepower at the wheels, and torque right under 300. I know there are extra stresses on the engine and the oil, so I don't expect it to be perfect.

Next I'm going to get my daily driver 97 Civic EX with 181k miles tested hehe

Also found this more detailed image

Based on this and the Nickel contents of both of my Blackstone samples, I would have to assume that the bearings are not wearing down at an abnormal rate. If all of the Nickel somehow got worn away during the original break-in oil change which we ran for about 10 miles, I would have super elevated Copper, Lead, and Tin numbers, but the Tin was also barely present in both samples. I can then only assume the bearings are OK, and that the higher contents of Copper and Lead from last time were break-in on the top layer of the bearing which is now washing away and decreasing.

I guess if I see a spike in the Nickel numbers, I'll know that the bearings are in need of replacement soon. Still not a clue on where the silver came from

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

Use for the car? Either taking it to work to enjoy the sun, or taking it out at night to speed down windy roads/racing/shenanigans. When I drive to work I take it easy and just stay with traffic. When I take it out for fun, I make sure I get as much fun as I can hehe

 

[CharlesE]

Cleanneon98:

I did my first oil change at 50 miles, then at 200 miles and switched to longer intervals based on clean magnetic drain plugs. I had a very bad experience with the first build. Strong suggestion have a working oil pressure gauge, not the factory idiot light with a gauge face! The oil pump relief valve can be a major concern.

Enjoy the car. They are fun....particularly when you pass a Mustang.

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

Originally Posted By: CharlesE
Cleanneon98:

I did my first oil change at 50 miles, then at 200 miles and switched to longer intervals based on clean magnetic drain plugs. I had a very bad experience with the first build. Strong suggestion have a working oil pressure gauge, not the factory idiot light with a gauge face! The oil pump relief valve can be a major concern.

Enjoy the car. They are fun....particularly when you pass a Mustang.

I did get the TDR Sender kit. It does work, though the response time is not as quick as aftermarket ones, it does give me a repetitive reading at cursing, cold, hot, idle, idle with or without fan, it responds to the engine, but it's not like the early NA Miatas which had the really quick sweep

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

I had a few bad experiences, first a stock motor let go due to a bad flash tune, then a built motor was ruined with a bad megasquirt tune, then the rebuilt motor had the thrust bearings installed backwards, but now we are on the way 2 years later haha

 

[GMorg]

There's not a lot of silver in car engines (including bearings), partially because it very sensitive to zinc in the oil. On the other hand, heat exchange units (radiators) can have a lot of silver in the solder. Do you have an after market oil cooler or some other soldered component?

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

I do have this kit but for the NB, same thing, different length of lines.

https://www.flyinmiata.com/na6-fm-complete-oil-cooler-kit.html

Maybe I'll call FlyinMiata and see if they recommend I continue the t6 or go to an oil with less Zinc.

Would you guys recommend draining the cooler during each oil change?

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

Called Setrab, the maker of the cooler. They said there is no silver in the cooler and were also puzzled to where it came from

 

[GMorg]

Without caged bearings or solder joints, I'm at a loss.

 

[CharlesE]

If it helps, this is a list of the components in my engine.
I had a trace (1) of silver in my last analysis. Perhaps the common components might be a starting point for you, if the silver persists.


-Supertech forged pistons (choice of compression ratios/bore size)
-Manley forged H-beam connecting rods
-ARP2000 Rod Bolts
-ACL Race main, rod, and thrust bearings
-ARP head studs
-ARP main studs
-Boundary Engineering "Street/Strip" oil pump with billet gears
-Supertech Viton valve seals
-Gates Racing timing belt
-OEM Mazda seals and gaskets
-Full cylinder head refresh (hot tank, new manganese/bronze valve guides, 3-angle valve job, pressure test, and resurface)

 

[SavetheRimBrake]

I have eagle rods and wiseco pistons. Everything else in our builds is near identical. Good choice of parts sir. Crank up the boost!

 

[weasley]

Thinking sideways, could the silver be going into the sample at or after it is taken? Or do you drive the car near any industrial areas that major in silver? Electronics, smelting etc? The silver could be going in via atmospheric dust. Maybe send a sample of air filter for testing?