0w-40 viscosity engine oils

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
for some time now engine oils with a viscosity of 0w-40 seem to have been targeted as "poor performers" by some people on here. Excessive "shearing", "excessive valve train wear" and "excessive ring/bore wear" are the most popular issues raised - I have never seen any substantiation for this!
The Euro engine manufacturers have not seen any evidence of this either and are increasingly using this viscosity as a factory and mandatory service fill!

Perhaps it is now time for the "knockers" of this most popular factory fill synthetic oil viscosity (regardless of the Brand) to lay their facts out on the table for us all to see!

Firstly, some background information:

1) It is the factory fill viscosity at Porsche for all engine types and is retrospectively recommended by Porsche for all engines from MY73 *especially with cold starts below -20C)

2) It is the factory and service fill for Mercedes Benz/AMG (most engine families)

3) It is marketed by most European Oil Companies

4) It is Approved and Listed by many European manufacturers for petrol and light diesel use after having passed their specific test protocols

5) These lubricants are specified in multi turbo engines for 12k miles OCIs and beyond in some engines (MB Assyst determined OCI's average around 11k here)

6) Most 0w-40 viscosity oils are significantly less viscous than most 5w-40 oils in the popular "start-up zone" of say from 0C to 25C

7) The reduced viscosity (0w-40 to 5w-40) in the warm-up zone (say 10C to 80C) is very significant when dealing with some engine's phasers, hydraulic actuators and switchable valve gear

8) Most Euro service providers here in Australia use this viscosity product (various Brands) as a service fill (our ambient range is from -15C to 50C)

The following Companies market at least one or two variations of this viscosity product (Motul has 3) as well as 5w-40 lubricants - and most have done so for the last several years;

Addnol
AGIP
ARAL
BP
Castrol
Chevron-Texaco-Caltex
DEA (German Shell)
ELF
ExxonMobil
FUCHS
Grupa Lotos
Hellas
Kendall
Motul
U-Tech
Shell
Spectr-Auto
Valvoline
Westfalen

Note that all of the major Oil marketing Companies are represented and that the above Brands are Approved and Listed by at least one or more European engine manufacturer(s)!
There may be others too!!

So I would welcome structured information with dataphotos of excessive valve train wear and where excessive shearing (if factual) of any of these oils has caused engine damage or reduced engine life when being used as specified - please provide here for us all to see! Specific AMG, VW, BMW, Porsche and Mercedes information is most welcome as it is in some cases their factory fill (as mentioned earlier)!

I'm sure most will agree that a few ppm of Iron, Copper or Lead etc in UOAs - one oil to another - is NOT meaningful data!

One poster Ted (Tooslick), recently stated this;

"I may have misspoken...it seems wear was reduced by 50%-70% compared to the Mobil 1, 0w-40, rather than the mere 25%-40% I had predicted in the previous thread. LOL!

I think the 5w-40 vs 0w-40 issue is pretty much settled, at least in terms of wear protection."

So now please "deliver the goods" and give us the evidence to support this statement and others of a similar nature!! Ted, starting with what your definition of "wear" is may well be appropriate!!

Emotive statements, one liners or unsupported "opinions" etc are not the evidence required - just the documented facts that can be substantiated!

Note: I am NOT connected to ANY Oil Company in any way. I am a Commercial user of Castrol, Mobil and Shell lubricants

Regards
Doug

 

[Pablo]

Doug - with all due respect I believe most of the criticism was of M1 0W-40, not 0W-40 in general. I didn't feel like digging up UOA's - can you please at least post the link of the UOA Ted was commenting on? Thanks.

BTW I sorta thought you were above this sorta thing.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Pablo - I appreciate your due respect but "above what sort of thing"?

I do not truck misinformation and find such statements (from Ted) misleading for those not as "expert" as he!

The statement was made in the UOA Section - Mobil 5w-40 in a SAAB. He chose not to substantiate his comments made there

Pablo - many people on here use 0w-40 engine oils (I do in my Benz) and deserve to know the facts!

To me the Brand is irrelevant - the facts are!

Doug

 

[JHZR2]

IMO, the shearing issue is nearly irrelevant. SAAB put Elf Excellium 0w-30 in my 9-3. It met all of the right specs, and comes from the bottle as a light 30wt. SAAB also reccomends M1 0w-40 in this engine.

Given that they use a 30 wt oil, and had previously (and still do elsewhere) sold their 'turbo oil' in 0w-30 viscosity, do I really care that M1 0w-40 goes to a 30wt oil part way, so long as my engine remains clean?

If the UOAs are good, even with extended drains that saab reccomends, I dont see much reason for concern for what is going on in the oil, whether it is thickening or thinning...

JMH

 

[buster]

Doug, I think the facts are that the wear metals this board generally sees, in most UOA's not all, show that wear is low with any oil. What is high to me, might not be to Joe Schmoe etc. I think this board really over reacts to wear metals. For instance, if we see a report on a particular oil that was run for 9,000 miles and showed Fe wear at 40ppm, most would think that was alarming. Yet I've had people tell me that is low and until it's over 150ppm, then it becomes something to worry about. (Oil Analyzers specifically)

If someone is able to obtain lower numbers with another oil, why not use it then? If the 40ppm, which by all means isn't high, is lowered to 20ppm, I'd use that brand. I think that is what we have seen. It's not that M1 0w-40 causes excessive wear, it's just not as good as it could be. I've also noticed that 99% of the vehicles that oil is found in, contain 8 or more quarts of oil. That is a lot of oil and with that much it won't be degraded as quickly. Please correct me if I'm wrong. ??

With M1 0w-40, it has shown to shear down a bit, usually to a 12.6-13cSt oil. Not a big deal. In extreme cold weather, I'd expect a 0w-40 to outperform a 5w-40 such as M1 SUV. M1 SUV is pretty thick compared to M1 0w-40 when cold.

So what I'm getting at is there is nothing wrong with 0w-40's of any brand and you won't find engine failures because engines dont' usually fail due to the oil being used. In fact study's have been done that show engines fail from dirt. But when nit picking UOA's like we do on here, you can probably pick better choices then some of the one size fits all types.

 

[Mud]

I did not realize that M1 0W-40 was so criticised. It's what I've been using in our Audi, A4, 1.8 turbo, with 4500 mile OCI's. Used Syntec 5W-40 this time around because AZ was out of the M1.

So what's the alternative or do I really need one? I'm not a chemist or really care too much about sending in an oil analysis every few months. I just want a good product in my car.

I also want an over the counter product, available at local auto parts or Wally-Mart.

Doug, I would be interested in seeing more comments to your post.

 

[Pablo]

Doug - I mean the whole "I dare you" and only follow my rules kind of posts.

This is a pretty good exemplar in a single application of M1 0W-40 (previous oil), http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002935#000000
I'll let Ted dig up the others.

I need to be a bit more careful about broad brush statements when I mean a singular brand

I doubt M1 0w-40 will cause instant engine death - it's a fine oil. Just a gut feel

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
JHRZ2 - thanks for an accurate and sensitive post

Buster - yes wear metal uptake is "emotional" for some. In reality the numbers shown here are usually very minor indeed. When you regularly run expensive engines and transmissions out to the Manufacturer's limits without durability or longevity problems over millions of miles it all becomes more meaningful

Pablo - there is no intended "I dare you" element in my post, after all I did NOT make the sweeping and unpracticed statement in the first place

I sincerely apologise if you view my posts as "only follow my rules" type. Perhaps it is my writing style. But, people that post here that promote themselves as providing "expert opinion" should be able to back up their comments with facts. Or they could simply desist from making them unless they can produce the data

Also, I did not mention M1 0w-40 specifically as it simply does not exist in isolation. It is obviously a great product - and the others are too without a doubt! I would use any of them with total confidence

Pablo I try to post factual information that can be supported and any reader can judge its credibility for themselves!

It is simply tiresome for the same old issues to arise via glib statements without supporting statistical data

If you think a UOA or two is sufficient to support misleading comments that apply to hundreds of thousands (millions) of engines - well, I never! I am really interested here in the "big picture" - the Global perspective!

As a matter of interest I used M1 10w-30 and M1 0w-40 in my MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 and MY02 Subaru Outback EJ25 and they rattled at startup! I did not like that and they both loved 5w-40!
My Benz will live on M1 0w-40 for warranty reasons and its demonstrated excellent performance in their engines
As you well know, the M1 startup noise in some engines is totally meaningless but I simply did not like it - idiosyncratic behaviour perhaps!

Mud - you can use M1 0w-40 with great confidence - Porsche AG think it is good enough to put it in every new engine they make (as they have done for many years) - including their high performance twin turbo V8s!!
And Porsche is the most profitable car Manufacturer in the World - they did not get that way with a lot of warranty claims about their engines using the wrong or unsuitable lubricants!
Now as for GM and Ford...............!

Pablo you see I do not think there is any magic oil - do you??

Doug

[ October 16, 2005, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[MGBV8]

Doug

In your experience have you found a direct correlation between the fine wear particles in the oil and the wear particles in the oil filter?

 

[Pablo]

Doug - well written - however I think (just from raw bad memory) the 0W-40 comments (almost?) 100% have been associated with M1 0W-40 - and more importantly are commentary on a UOA. (right or wrong)

If these 0W-40 "bashing" posts are stand alone "glib" statements or purposeful new threads, then that is plain wrong. Honestly I have not seen this. Can you provide evidence?

 

[sgtgeek]

My 05 Mercedes E320 calls for 5-40 not 0-40 and that is what they use at the dealership for the 10K service intervals....

 

[like a rock]

How in the world would one see an advantage of in terms of destructive wear not a few ppm's of any 0w-40 vs. a 5w-40. If you change every say 7000 miles with a 0w-40 and 7000 miles with a 5w-40 regardless of brand over a five year period do you think that one or the other oil is going to cause excessive wear or bore polishing? No a few ppm's will make no difference over that period of time. We can drive ourselves to drinking over a few ppm's. Don't worry so much Doug.

 

[John_E]

I am essentially with Doug / like a rock. However, I SUSPECT that those in very cold climates are slightly better off with 0W-40 during the winter, and those in very hot climates may do better with 5W-40 in summer, because of viscosity shear. In fact, in most continental climatic zones of North America and western Europe, 0W-40 winter and 5W-40 summer just might be the best way to go. However, frequency of oil changes is a far more important consideration than precise viscosity.

 

[wavinwayne]

I love my M1 0w40. I just fed it to my VW today

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
MGBV8 - a simple answer to your question is no!
A more complex answer is that with a centrifuge seperator (which I use) a single particle analysis (with a UOA showing iron @ 221ppm (my limit is 150ppm)) still showed mainly soot and the usual minor mix of metals. Cutting open FF filters (Donaldson ELF Synteq) has always shown a complete absence of anything! That is why I changed to SS 25micron FF screens instead. We watch our PQ Index numbers too

Pablo - most comments were selectively made in open topics and a few via UOAs (most recently with Porsche 911s)
I accept that people will comment as they see fit and this must be encouraged. However the constant references by certain individuals to "excessive shear" and "excessive wear" associated with Approved and Listed 0w-40 engine lubricants is simply not able to be supported in fact

At least you know that and I appreciate your comments to that end

I have tried not to mention a specific oil Brand here and those 0w-40 oils that have Euro engine maker Approvals and are Listed have passed very rigorous shear and viscosity test protocols - and way beyond either the API or ACEA requirements. M1 0w-40 is but one - but one of the best performers too!

like a rock - that is my point. Misleading comments do cause many people on here to worry about 1 or 2ppm difference in a UOA - this is very unfortunate. Now, if it was 50 or 60ppm and associated with other "issues" it would be a little different....perhaps!

Wayne - I love the ELF filler - at least the GC Elves aren't around! (I have not forgotten the container)

Doug

 

[LarryL]

Here's a comment I had on a previous thread
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011908#000013

I know the conditions were a bit extreme but isn't that what synthetic oil is for?

After an Auto-RX cycle I've gone down to 5w-30 with Red Line and still have not had a problem with the trip to Phoenix and back. I could be that something else caused the problem, but I'm not willing to try Mobil 1 0w-40 again.

 

[JasonVW]

I just ran the first test (Blackstone) on my M1 0w40 out of my 1.8T VW engine. 5000 OCI and the only issue was that the viscosity was just below range. This seems to be what I have read on this forum. Could I switch to 5w40 to solve this issue? I hesitate to, because it does not meet (at least VW says) the VW 502 spec and my car is still under warranty (but not for long). Would you recommend switching to 5w40? Maybe I will do that for the next OCI and run another lab test. That should tell?

 

[wavinwayne]

Nah, just stay with the 0w40. The viscosity dropping a little out of range won't hurt anything. If you ran that oil for another 3k miles, it would probably thicken back up to a 40wt. That's what other BITOGers have noticed.

I also have a VW 1.8T, & I too ran M1 0w40 for 5k miles & had it analyzed by Blackstone. My results were the same as yours. Negligible wear on my UOA, & just a little drop in viscosity. Blackstone said I would have had no trouble extending the drain.

Use M1 0w40 with pride, & down with the scoffers!!!

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sgtgeek:
My 05 Mercedes E320 calls for 5-40 not 0-40 and that is what they use at the dealership for the 10K service intervals....

---

Interesting. My local Mercedes dealer uses Mobil 1 0w40 to service all 99 model year and newer cars because this oil meets both the older 229.3 and the newer 229.5 specs.

What brand 5w40 oil does your shop use? There are only four or five sold in the US that meet the MB 229.3 spec. However, I was under the impression that all 2005 models require an oil that meets 229.5, and NONE of the 5w40 oils meet that spec.

 

[Alan]

I also use M1 0W40 with pride

.

I've never found it to be noisy during start up in the 3 different engines i've tried it in.
My BMW M54 motor loves this stuff!

BTW,
It's really nice to be able to buy a OTC oil that meets so many Euro specs at your local Walmart.