0w-20 and VII use

[JHZR2]

Curious if anyone has insight to VII use in 0w-20 lubes, particularly between regular, EP and AFE Mobil 1 0w-20.

It seems that some may have a higher PAO concentrations than others, but in curious how that affects the use of VII and the stability of the oil.

Thanks!

 

[HTSS_TR]

IIRC OVERKILL had a post a while ago that M1 0W20 EP has about 60% PAO, AFE has much less PAO. I think EP use much less VII so it is more stable and can be used for extended OCI to 15k miles.

When my daughter '14 Accord finished 2 years free oil changes next May I will change her oil with M1 0W20 EP with Fram Ultra XG3717. I will visually check the oil condition when MM goes down to 10-15%, if it's look good I will just reset MM and change oil&filter when MM goes down to 10-15% again.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Curious if anyone has insight to VII use in 0w-20 lubes, particularly between regular, EP and AFE Mobil 1 0w-20.

It seems that some may have a higher PAO concentrations than others, but in curious how that affects the use of VII and the stability of the oil.

Thanks!


It greatly depends on what cuts and types of PAO is being used, as well as which VII. For Example Exxonmobil Chemical has a product called mPAO Link which is sometimes used to balance out a formulation. Also the type of VII is important. For example I've seen some PAO based 0W20 formulas with as little as 2.5% VII, others with 6-8%. Depending on your desired viscosity curve you can also choose VII that have optimized treat rates (in the 5-7% range) but still hit really high (200+) viscosity index.

 

[LotI]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR


When my daughter '14 Accord finished 2 years free oil changes next May I will change her oil with M1 0W20 EP with Fram Ultra XG3717. I will visually check the oil condition when MM goes down to 10-15%, if it's look good I will just reset MM and change oil&filter when MM goes down to 10-15% again.


My '14 Accord is trending toward more miles per OC than my '12 based on my preliminary numbers. If she does mostly highway(like me), you may be looking at 12k before 15%. With a UOA you could monitor it but I wouldn't blindly go to 24k miles on a GDI engine...assuming she has the K24

I'm running the same combo now and at the $1/qt that I paid for it and the rebate on the filter I have less than $10 in a M1EP/FU combo.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Curious if anyone has insight to VII use in 0w-20 lubes, particularly between regular, EP and AFE Mobil 1 0w-20.

It seems that some may have a higher PAO concentrations than others, but in curious how that affects the use of VII and the stability of the oil.

Thanks!


It greatly depends on what cuts and types of PAO is being used, as well as which VII. For Example Exxonmobil Chemical has a product called mPAO Link which is sometimes used to balance out a formulation. Also the type of VII is important. For example I've seen some PAO based 0W20 formulas with as little as 2.5% VII, others with 6-8%. Depending on your desired viscosity curve you can also choose VII that have optimized treat rates (in the 5-7% range) but still hit really high (200+) viscosity index.


+1

 

[tig1]

Regardles, some here are doing 15-20K OCIs with M1 0-20 AFE with great results. I do 10K and my engines are performing very well also. What ever the difference is between the two oils. AFE is no slouch, producing outstanding results.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Of the two, AFE and EP, if I extend OCI of my daughter 2014 Accord LX to double the MM to around 20-25k miles I would choose EP without doing any UOA. The extra cost of no more than $3 for 5-qt is well worth it.

I think all 2014-2015 Accord 4-cyl have the same engine type and it probably is K24xx

 

[Tabor]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Regardles, some here are doing 15-20K OCIs with M1 0-20 AFE with great results. I do 10K and my engines are performing very well also. What ever the difference is between the two oils. AFE is no slouch, producing outstanding results.


Yup.

I don't doubt OVERKILL but I change the oil on my '14 Focus when the OLM tells me to (usually at 10K) and I happy to use AFE for this application.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Tabor
Originally Posted By: tig1
Regardles, some here are doing 15-20K OCIs with M1 0-20 AFE with great results. I do 10K and my engines are performing very well also. What ever the difference is between the two oils. AFE is no slouch, producing outstanding results.


Yup.

I don't doubt OVERKILL but I change the oil on my '14 Focus when the OLM tells me to (usually at 10K) and I happy to use AFE for this application.


The higher percentage of PAO in the EP oil just makes it a better "value" IMHO. They are both EXCELLENT product and I currently use the AFE 0w-20 in my wife's '06 Charger R/T.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The higher percentage of PAO in the EP oil just makes it a better "value" IMHO. They are both EXCELLENT product and I currently use the AFE 0w-20 in my wife's '06 Charger R/T.

Not only EP is a "better value" with higher PAO content, but for extended OCI of 12-15k miles or more it is safer too.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Curious if anyone has insight to VII use in 0w-20 lubes, particularly between regular, EP and AFE Mobil 1 0w-20.

It seems that some may have a higher PAO concentrations than others, but in curious how that affects the use of VII and the stability of the oil.

Thanks!


It greatly depends on what cuts and types of PAO is being used, as well as which VII. For Example Exxonmobil Chemical has a product called mPAO Link which is sometimes used to balance out a formulation. Also the type of VII is important. For example I've seen some PAO based 0W20 formulas with as little as 2.5% VII, others with 6-8%. Depending on your desired viscosity curve you can also choose VII that have optimized treat rates (in the 5-7% range) but still hit really high (200+) viscosity index.


Thanks, but I'm trying to get away from generalities. I've tried to find the 0w-20 AFE MSDS without success, and I'm trying to consider the best choice for my car. I suspect that with 90% oil life at 2000 miles, that this oil has the potential to be in use for 20k miles. Since I have a hybrid, the engine sees far more start stop events, and may have a greater challenge in terms of fuel and shearing due to this.

It seems like the EP oil may be my best bet, but we were doing 15k mile ocis on regular M1 10w-30 (with UOA) long before EP came out.

I'm not one who goes chasing value proposition of an oil based upon PAO content, but I am interested in if one uses more Viis than the other.

 

[CATERHAM]

I don't know what hybrid you have but the 0W-20 grade first specified by a manufacturer was developed to deal with the challenges in lubricating hybrid engines.
Both Toyota and Honda developed very high VI 0W-20s to minimize the viscosity on start-up at all typical start-up temp's.

These oils are formulated with a unique very high VI multi-branched or star-type polymer VII. These polymer VIIs also have a low treat rate which contributes to the their very favorable shear stability.
In the States the two most readily available examples of these oils are the Mobil made Toyota Brand (TGMO) 0W-20 and the Idemitsu made Mazda brand 0W-20.

These are not especially long drain oils but Toyota for example recommends a 10,000 mile OCI for their vehicles for which it's specified. There are plenty of UOAs of this popular oil to review
if interested.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

I'm not one who goes chasing value proposition of an oil based upon PAO content, but I am interested in if one uses more Viis than the other.


I understand your desire for specifics, but there is no way that XOM will divulge that info. I guess you could ask them, but I would be completely shocked if they gave you anything close to the specifics you are hoping for.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


Thanks, but I'm trying to get away from generalities. I've tried to find the 0w-20 AFE MSDS without success


It is the one simply labelled "Mobil 1 0w-20" under the MSDS search. The EP product contains the additional EP language.

The AFE 0w-20 currently shows:

Originally Posted By: Mobil

1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED - CAS#: 68037-01-4 @ 30 - < 40% H304
SEVERELY HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAFFINIC DISTILLATE - CAS#: 64742-54-7 @ 30 - < 40% H304
SOLVENT DEWAXED HEAVY PARAFFINIC DISTILLATE - CAS#: 64742-65-0 @ 1 - < 5% H304


So 30-40% PAO.

Whilst EP 0w-20 currently shows:

Originally Posted By: Mobil

1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED - CAS#: 68037-01-4 @ 60 - < 70% H304

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: JHZR2


Thanks, but I'm trying to get away from generalities. I've tried to find the 0w-20 AFE MSDS without success


It is the one simply labelled "Mobil 1 0w-20" under the MSDS search. The EP product contains the additional EP language.

The AFE 0w-20 currently shows:

Originally Posted By: Mobil

1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED - CAS#: 68037-01-4 @ 30 - < 40% H304
SEVERELY HYDROTREATED HEAVY PARAFFINIC DISTILLATE - CAS#: 64742-54-7 @ 30 - < 40% H304
SOLVENT DEWAXED HEAVY PARAFFINIC DISTILLATE - CAS#: 64742-65-0 @ 1 - < 5% H304


So 30-40% PAO.

Whilst EP 0w-20 currently shows:

Originally Posted By: Mobil

1-DECENE, HOMOPOLYMER HYDROGENATED - CAS#: 68037-01-4 @ 60 - < 70% H304


OK thanks... Im in no way an expert in reviewing motor oil MSDSs, but was hoping that VII constituents might be listed on there as a way to get a percentage....

Thanks!

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I don't know what hybrid you have but the 0W-20 grade first specified by a manufacturer was developed to deal with the challenges in lubricating hybrid engines.
Both Toyota and Honda developed very high VI 0W-20s to minimize the viscosity on start-up at all typical start-up temp's.

These oils are formulated with a unique very high VI multi-branched or star-type polymer VII. These polymer VIIs also have a low treat rate which contributes to the their very favorable shear stability.
In the States the two most readily available examples of these oils are the Mobil made Toyota Brand (TGMO) 0W-20 and the Idemitsu made Mazda brand 0W-20.

These are not especially long drain oils but Toyota for example recommends a 10,000 mile OCI for their vehicles for which it's specified. There are plenty of UOAs of this popular oil to review
if interested.


Honda Accord Hybrid, 2015.

If I go to Mobil's website, it appears that TGMO is made by them. Maybe that's only for some markets?

Ive typically been leaning towards Mobil 1 versus an oil from a dealership since I generally DIY. But Im willing to consider otherwise...

 

[CATERHAM]

Yes TGMO 0W-20 was originally developed by Nippon Oil (ENEOS-Sustina) working with Toyota. Nippon Oil has a formulating plant in Alabama and they were the original suppliers of TGMO for North American Toyota dealers from 2009 to about 2011 when Mobil took over production of TGMO for NA copying NipponOil/Toyota's specifications (very high VI and high moly). TGMO is quite different to M1 AFE 0W-20 being lighter at typical start-up temp's with higher AW additive levels.

Mobil apparently formulates TGMO for the European market and Nippon Oil for Japan and Asia.

More specifically for Honda, Idemitsu was the original supplier of the Honda 0W-20 for the US and Canada as they have a formulating plant in Indiana. Around the same time Mobil took over production of TGMO, Conoco Philips started suppling oil to Honda USA including the 0W-20 grade but not with the same high VI formulation. Honda Canada is still being supplied with the high VI 0W-20 by Idemitsu.
And Castrol makes a very high VI 0W-20 for Honda of Europe.

 

[dailydriver]

The Mobil made, U.S. TGMO's starting TBN cannot touch the M1 EP 0W-20's starting TBN though, correct?

(Thinking about winter OCI, short trip fuel dilution/moisture & acid buildup resisting, high TBN as taking precedent over ultimate V.I., when mixed with M1 0W-40.

)

 

[53' Stude]

Daily driver: ya' lost me with the M1 0w40 thing. Can u elaborate please?

Thanks

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: car51
Daily driver: ya' lost me with the M1 0w40 thing. Can u elaborate please?

Thanks


I was thinking about mixing the M1 0W-40, with the M1 EP 0W-20, instead of the 'usual' (for the 'CATERHAM blend' users around here) mix with the TGMO, for my coming winter OCI, as that would yield a MUCH higher starting TBN.