0W-20 A3/B4 Availability

[Jetronic]

Exactly, your position of "not possible" didn't see his MillersOil yet. So you were fundamentally wrong, weren't you? Shear stability in a rather Newtonian 0W-20/20 happens to be zero issue. A density limitation might be...

Feasible in general, just a 0W-20 of elevated HTHS. I was adressing the beginning of the thread here. With pursuing the low density it would become unnecessarily hard, as we made clear already.

But there's at least two problems I actually pointed to: Not only will a higher density 0W-20/20 walk towards maybe HTHS 4, there's also the problem of simply no data to be had from just VI regarding a temp of 150°C as soon as we can allow advanced VII strategies. Think of the rubber balls etc. to intrude if you will: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/steven-armes-rubber-balls.328048/

HTHS eats like half of the boosting, but not all.

No, the 0w-20 he linked to did shear or the HTHS viscosity would be 2.9 cP but it was only 2.7cP. Which can mean anything between 2.65 and 2.74 cP too. It's a normal loss of viscosity for just about any oil with stay-in-grade requirements.

If you add viscosity improver to the above oil to get to the 40C and 100C viscosities you will fall well short of 3.5 cP. Don't know how much higher you want density to get unless you invent an oil that sinks in water... The oil I gave viscometrics for above is already impossible as the base oils don't exist and that was a best case scenario. The oil you are proposing is even harder to make.

Bottom line is the Millers is a run of the mill 0w-20 oil, nothing fancy about it. If we limit ourselves to existing oils, the highest HTHS 0w20 I've come across is Redline, and that still only makes 2.9 cP or A5/B5 viscosity requirements, because it shears aswell. It needs VII to get these viscometrics.

With todays and even tomorrows technology, it's not possible to make such an oil. Maybe PAG based, but those would not be mixible with existing ols so not suitable for engine oil use

 

[JHZR2]

Anybody willing to calculate the 150C kinematic viscosity abd transform to dynamic to see the maximum possible HTHS? With the kinematic viscosity already below 3.5 cSt it can't be A3/B4

How do you know that curve fit and extrapolation will be right for this?

 

[Jetronic]

Because it works at these temperatures. the VII have already done their expanding and there's no wax formation that needs to dissolve. You can't extrapolate below about 0C because of those phenomena but upwards works. Go much higher and it stops working due to evaporation of the lightest components in the mix, though

 

[blingo]

Jetronic, none of us ever saw this exact Millers as anything special. But it most probably could be made by them like anyone else. And calling such 0W-20 impossible would remain as false as it had been. It wouldn't be mineral oil, but many oils aren't these days.

The density is in those PAG, the one for HTHS 3.6 doesn't even sport high VI! Viscometrics no problem at all. Esters we'd have to check.
You may not have seen the table by the time of your answer – not much left to calculate and speculate.

 

[Jetronic]

I didn't see the table at the time, but i did see it after.

The first 2 listed are unsuitable, they need to be mixed with other oils to reduce the NOACK below 13% (ACEA requirement) AND you would end up with an 10W-30 or 15W-30 oil. The third one is suitable but won't allow HTHS 4.0 anymore. Maybe with the correct VII , but also no 0W-20 in that case as the oil needs to flow at -40C

Ester density is higher than PAO and mineral, but typically below 1 at 15C. There's a bit to be gained, but not enough as your table shows

 

[Jetronic]

Jetronic, none of us ever saw this exact Millers as anything special. But it most probably could be made by them like anyone else. And calling such 0W-20 impossible would remain as false as it had been. It wouldn't be mineral oil, but many oils aren't these days.

The density is in those PAG, the one for HTHS 3.6 doesn't even sport high VI! Viscometrics no problem at all. Esters we'd have to check.
You may not have seen the table by the time of your answer – not much left to calculate and speculate.

Also, I'd like to add that I wanted it to be true I'd be very intersted if that oil came close to A3/B4 viscosity. My engine requires 2.9 cP minimum, so if I could find an xW-20 with 3.2 cP and enough dispersancy for a diesel I'd go for it.

0W-30 so far is the best we can get however. Maybe 5W-30 or 10W-30 if cold viscosity isn't important but the latter is _almost_ as impossible to find as the mythical 0W-20

 

[blingo]

Okay, over by the 800 Volt EV-charger they say I'd hardly ever make sufficiently clear how wrong people on this forum usually are. So let's put that straight (and probably make it one more protected space for Lucas Oil reflections : There does not seem to be much of a Noack problem with oil soluble / miscible PAG. Capping OSP helps to a degree, OSP18 HVI of VI 185 and 3.9 cSt looks no worse than a PAO4. In addition antioxidants are said to bring volatility down, essentially comparable to a GTL8 for conventional OSP46 – which would both fit a 0W-20/20 blend for any HTHS between 2.9 and 4 or more.
The modified HVI variants of TOTAL and DOW appear somewhat newer but a lot of freedom is actually quite old and a few more tables were produced. Prestone may have actually sold an oil a long time ago (but is merely a Malaysian label for HC-synthetics or so these days). Experimental UC-PO-A1-F1-3.6 between DOW and Ford should fit the bill:

 

[kschachn]

Okay.

Well we’ll look for it on the shelves.

 

[Jetronic]

Let’s consider an example of how polymeric VI boosters are used in practice. Assume, you have got 150N API Group II base oil with KV40 = 28 cSt and KV100 = 5.2 cSt (VI = 109). If you add 15% olefin copolymer (OCP) type of VI improver, such as Paratone 8006, you will end up with a polymer-thickened product with KV40 = 83 cSt and KV100 = 12 cSt (VI = 140). So, the VI has increased from 109 to 140. How can you decipher that this a polymer-oil blend and not a polymer-free 600N oil? The first thing to check is the flash point: polymer-thickened oils will have nearly the same flash point as the original base oil (150N, FP 220oC), which is much lower than the flash point of an equiviscous polymer-free base oil (600N, FP 270oC). The second useful check is the evaporative loss: polymer-thickened oils will exhibit nearly the same evaporative loss as the original base oil (150N, 15 wt.% Noack) which is much higher than the evaporative loss of an equiviscous polymer-free base oil (600N, 2 wt.% Noack).

from https://www.bizol.com/products/research-development/detail-view/news/viscosity-matters
By Professor Boris Zhmud

emphasis mine... and think about this also: how can distillation function if products don't distil out each at their own temperatures?

 

[blingo]

Are you confusing VM-polymers and antioxidants? Those were VM-free, antioxidative components I meant:

In Mr. Rudnick's book (which collects much like that in two chapters for PAG and OSP, but also GTL, estolides, lots of esters etc.):

 

[Jetronic]

Which AO are they using? 1% equals 10.000 ppm, whereas the currently used AO ZDDP is used around 1000 PPM or a factor 10 less. and that won't increase anymore.

 

[Jetronic]

The question really is, will those PAG based oils hit the shelves before general use of ICE is phased out? They're not here today. and looks like they won't be here tomorrow either. In 10=20 years they won't matter anymore

 

[blingo]

Well, a question of demand, or should we say need? What trucker would buy an expensive 0W-20 of HTHS 3.6 cP instead of Delo-600 10W-30 x 3.6 and what passenger car should need it even now? HC and complements + some VM-strategies will certainly do most of the work far from HTHS 3.5 cP.

TOTAL could do some for racing (or probably did), DOW certainly looks assistive, Kroon uses some in the PolyTech and like others focused on Russia could do it if hyped or to be raced.

Ford wasn't focused on Noack, they mentioned proprietary additivation and pointed to patents, to a degree they looked into additive consumption of an oil or two, but with the exception of one oil they used no ZDDP when experimenting and still saw the 3.9 in Noack. So, no direct comparison, no packages developed.
From Rudnick's book: "Figure 7.13 shows the inclusion of 1 and 2% of an aminic anti-oxidant can reduce their volatilities to values less than 8%. This suggests the anti-oxidant is suppressing the generation of more volatile and lighter oxidation by-products by controlling oxidation of the polyether. Researchers have also demonstrated that the inclusion of salicylate- and phenate-based detergents can also improve volatility [37]. OSPs have been formulated into passenger car motor oils where strict standards on Noack volatility are specifed. Today, they are used as additives and co-base oils in top-tier PCMO formulations."


My primary interest as always is in the exceptional cleanliness from clean decomposition / burning and good solvency etc. – to me even blending capped OSP with PIB for HTHS 3cP, low VI and high volatile losses would still be perfect

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