09 Pilot VTec and hot weather oil choice

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 Originally Posted By: Gurney
(And to those typing furiously about the potential -- and illusory -- warranty issues, IMHO it is unimaginable that Honda would deny an engine warranty claim arising out of the use of M1 5W-30 when they are partnered with M1 in the HTO-06 certification.)
(TYPING VERY SLOWWWWWWLY) While I appreciate your info, imaging going into a Honda shop after a major engine problem, in these days of "fine print" leaglese, and telling the shop supervisor "But some guy on the internet told me it was OK...he just "couldn't imaging" you denying a claim be cause I didn't follow the owners manual, and used a different oil..."
 
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I'd use PP 5W20 or Mobil 1 5W20, PP being my first choice. Honda spec'd a 20 grade oil for that engine, and I would have no problems using it.
 
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I would worry more about the viscosity of your tranny and gear oil holding up in this heat than your engine oil. Your engine has an excellent cooling system already.
 
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 Originally Posted By: gfh77665
 Originally Posted By: Gurney
(And to those typing furiously about the potential -- and illusory -- warranty issues, IMHO it is unimaginable that Honda would deny an engine warranty claim arising out of the use of M1 5W-30 when they are partnered with M1 in the HTO-06 certification.)
(TYPING VERY SLOWWWWWWLY) While I appreciate your info, imaging going into a Honda shop after a major engine problem, in these days of "fine print" leaglese, and telling the shop supervisor "But some guy on the internet told me it was OK...he just "couldn't imaging" you denying a claim be cause I didn't follow the owners manual, and used a different oil..."
Sir, we could debate this till the cows come home. We both know that, regardless of his oil choice, the gentleman who asked the original question is more likely to win the lottery than have an engine/oil-related problem. But, more to the point, the OP asked for the best oil for protection against extremes of heat. That's M1 5W-30, not 5W-20. 5W-20 is a CAFE oil, pure and simple. (Even Honda's original SAE submissions acknowledged that.) Finally, because I know you wouldn't be persuaded by "some guy on the Internet," I'll spare you the discussion of the law related to warranty repairs.
 
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Actually, Amsoil is saying that you can use a different oil other than what the manu tells you, but it should meet current API service classifications and be the specified grade. http://www.amsoil.com/magnuson_moss.aspx "Vehicle manufacturers recommend lubricants according to their viscosity grade and service classification. Any oil, whether its conventional petroleum motor oil or synthetic, meeting the correct viscosity grade, 5W-30 for example, and the current API and ILSAC North American service classifications may be used without affecting warranty coverage."
 

CAK

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Thank you all for your posts gentleman. Indymac, The 09 Pilots have both a trans cooler and an oil cooler so maybe I am making a big deal over nothing. I do plan to drain the trans (about 3 quarts) and replace w/ fresh ATF-Z1 before making the trip. I plan to do this drain and replace on the ATF every 7,500 miles to ensure that good fluid is always in there. I think I will use the PP 5/20 in the engine for the trip. thanks, Carl
 
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 Originally Posted By: hate2work
Actually, Amsoil is saying that you can use a different oil other than what the manu tells you, but it should meet current API service classifications and be the specified grade. http://www.amsoil.com/magnuson_moss.aspx "Vehicle manufacturers recommend lubricants according to their viscosity grade and service classification. Any oil, whether its conventional petroleum motor oil or synthetic, meeting the correct viscosity grade, 5W-30 for example, and the current API and ILSAC North American service classifications may be used without affecting warranty coverage."
Hate2work: Good morning. WRT the statement you quoted from Amsoil's webpage, as I'm sure you realize, Amsoil is trying to reassure consumers that their product is safe and that it conforms to their vehicles' warranty requirements. I have no problem with what Amsoil said except -- having actually litigated this stuff -- I can tell you that the provisions of Magnuson Moss are much broader in their scope than Amsoil's quote implies. Much broader. But, since the OP has thanked us and moved on, I'm ready to do likewise.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Gurney
 Originally Posted By: gfh77665
 Originally Posted By: Gurney
(And to those typing furiously about the potential -- and illusory -- warranty issues, IMHO it is unimaginable that Honda would deny an engine warranty claim arising out of the use of M1 5W-30 when they are partnered with M1 in the HTO-06 certification.)
(TYPING VERY SLOWWWWWWLY) While I appreciate your info, imaging going into a Honda shop after a major engine problem, in these days of "fine print" leaglese, and telling the shop supervisor "But some guy on the internet told me it was OK...he just "couldn't imaging" you denying a claim be cause I didn't follow the owners manual, and used a different oil..."
Sir, we could debate this till the cows come home. We both know that, regardless of his oil choice, the gentleman who asked the original question is more likely to win the lottery than have an engine/oil-related problem. But, more to the point, the OP asked for the best oil for protection against extremes of heat. That's M1 5W-30, not 5W-20. 5W-20 is a CAFE oil, pure and simple. (Even Honda's original SAE submissions acknowledged that.) Finally, because I know you wouldn't be persuaded by "some guy on the Internet," I'll spare you the discussion of the law related to warranty repairs.
With all due respect, you have seriously jumped to conclusions. I never "typed furiously" about anything. I am simply, um, enjoying a casual conversation. All I did was make a small mention (in passing, please note) of potential warrenty issues. As hate2work has posted, the Magnuson Moss law DOES INDEED STATE "use the right grade". Disregard at your own risks! ----------------------------------------- Thats all for me too, thanks.
 

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Leave the trans fluid alone. Best to run Honda ATF as it is designed for your Honda. If you want to "baby" it,just let the dealer do a drain and refill once per year.
 
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 Originally Posted By: gfh77665
. . . As hate2work has posted, the Magnuson Moss law DOES INDEED STATE "use the right grade". Disregard at your own risks!
gfh: Sir, hate2work quoted Amsoil's webpage above (which, by the way, you then mis-quoted), not the Magnuson Moss Act. But, since you apparently believe -- incorrectly -- that the Act requires (quoting you) "use [of] the right grade [of oil]" please either quote the language of Magnuson Moss Act that requires this, or provide a citation to the relevent portion of the statute or, whenever you get a chance, provide any caselaw on point that supports your statement of law.
 
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Has anyone actually read the Magnuson Moss act, or had it explained? http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus01.shtm#Magnuson-Moss In particular, read the part about "Tie-in sales". No, the dealer can't deny warranty because you used Brand X instead of Genuine Honda (or any other)brand, BUT, it does not cover using things that aren't meant for it. True, it would be very hard (and unlikely) for 5W-30 to damage an engine that says 5W-20 on the filler cap. On the other hand, if you ran 20W-50 in the middle of an Alaska winter and damaged the VTEC solenoid with some freakishly high oil pressure, then guess what? Manguson Moss won't help you then. Now if you used Castrol 5W-20 that meets all the specs called out in your Owner's Manual and your engine seizes because of some other failure, then the dealer can't say "Oh, well, you didn't use genuine Honda 5W-20". So Gurney is correct, it does not say "Use the right grade", but it doesn't imply "Use whatever you like".
 

FZ1

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Forget that! Priced a lawsuit lately? Have all changes and work done by the dealer while you are under warranty to document compliance. You can bring your own oem spec oil to the dealer for the changes if you want. FZ1 is good:FZ1 is wise.
 

CAK

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FZ1 - I just purchased the Honda ATF-Z1 fluid directly from the dealer this past weekend, I have the shop manual, am very mechanically inclined, and the job of a simple drain and refill of the ATF seems no more difficult than an oil change. You suggest I pay the dealer to change the ATF fluid for me? (No attitude or sarcasm intended by me BTW) What are your concerns? I am just trying to keep good fluid in the tranny due in part to prior failures of Honda trannys. thanks, Carl
 
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 Originally Posted By: CAK
FZ1 - I just purchased the Honda ATF-Z1 fluid directly from the dealer this past weekend, I have the shop manual, am very mechanically inclined, and the job of a simple drain and refill of the ATF seems no more difficult than an oil change. You suggest I pay the dealer to change the ATF fluid for me? (No attitude or sarcasm intended by me BTW) What are your concerns? I am just trying to keep good fluid in the tranny due in part to prior failures of Honda trannys. thanks, Carl
If your trans is the same as the TL, I pretty much found the cure for the failures. It's the 3rd and 4th gear switches, I have a thread on it over at acurazine.com. Nothing wrong with changing the Z1 every year at least. I've run Amsoil ATD in mine for most of it's 76,000 miles and it's great.
 

FZ1

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Right,the most likely portion of a Honda drive train to fail is the tranny,not the engine. Therefore, don't create a question as to whether you properly changed the fluid. You aren't saving that much. The ATF costs $30 and you can negotiate the dealer down to about $75 for the service which includes the ATF. Do what you want after the warranty expires.
 
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That is a handy guide, isn't it, Mr. Sherman? And a recent one, too. That, too, is a plus. It was written by the FTC for businessmen (and women, of course) to assist them in complying with the statute. Which is really interesting when you stop and think about it, because one of the original purposes of the Magnuson Moss Act, perhaps the paramount one, was to protect consumers from arbitrary denials of warranty coverage by manufacturers. So, in a sense, we are coming full circle. What I mean by that is many consumers have become much more sophisticated in their understanding of their rights under the law than businessmen and managers. But, as you point out (not to put words in your mouth), Magnuson Moss is not a blank check to (mixing metaphors) run rough-shod over maintenance requirements and then come around seeking warranty coverage. But I'm not saying that. We are discussing using a 5W-30 weight synthetic oil in place of a conventional 5W-20 weight oil to protect an engine against extremes of heat and oil shearing in the middle of the summer. And it was for those very purposes that M1 5W-30 was certified by Honda and Exxon-Mobil to meet high engine-oil temperature (HTO-06) requirements set by Honda. They can't very well now argue that the product they certified is unfit for its intended use, now can they? And that's a key legal concept in this instance: vis -- is the substitute oil fit for its intended use. Clearly it is. We win. Furthermore, I agree with you that it would be very difficult for a consumer who (quoting you) "ran 20W-50 in the middle of an Alaska winter and damaged the VTEC solenoid" to argue successfully that he or she was entitled to the warranty protection of Magnuson Moss. I agree. I didn't suggest otherwise. In your example, the oil weight would be unfit for use in the circumstances you described. Mine isn't. We win. But, you raise an interesting point: Just who has the burden of proof in the example you chose, or for that matter, in any instance in which the consumer seeks warranty coverage? It's the manufacturer, Mr. Sherman. Always. Never the consumer. The burden is always on the manufacturer under Magnuson Moss to prove -- prove, not just argue or suggest or infer, but prove -- that the item or product the consumer used caused the damage which resulted in the claim. So, in the case of the OP, for Honda to win the right to deny warranty coverage for (in the extreme case) an engine failure (or any other mechanical failure), Honda would have to prove -- i.e., introduce in court actual physical evidence (the broken parts) supported by expert testimony -- to establish as a matter of law that it was Mobil 1 5W-30 synthetic oil that caused the damage which the consumer asserts is covered by the manufacturer's warranty. D*mn high burden of proof. And in the circumstances we are discussing, Honda can't meet it and would not try. That's Magnuson Moss. And it's why the OP has absolutely nothing to fear and everything to gain in his use of M1 5W-30 oil. As I said pages ago, we could debate this endlessly. The ultimate resolution is, of course, the courthouse. But, in my experience, there is no way in h*ll either Honda or Exxon-Mobil would deny a warranty claim arising out of the use of M1 5W-30, much less take these facts to trial or arbitration.
 
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