08 Suby Legacy GT 20,000 mi - 3600 miles on PP

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686
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PA
Hey all, Just got my first UOA done on my 08 legacy GT. Blackstone did it, but I'm going to type it in since I have problems posting images. Driving style: Middling. My wife's daily driver. She drives 70 miles a day, so it gets plenty of cruising at speed. Almost all backroads and highways. Occasionally burst of WOT to 4000-5000 rpms, rarely to full redline. Oil: Pennzoil Platinum 5w30, 3600 miles on it, no make-up added and no consumption noted. Filtering: PureOne PL14610 oil filter (about 20% taller than the recommended PL14612 filter, but with the same exact specs). AVO Dry Panel Air Filter cleaned at 9k, seems to be working fairly. Blackstone Comments: JOSEPH: In this initial analysis copper was the only metal out of line. It comes from brass or bronze parts. It doesn't necessarily read at a problem level here, but does show some excess wear at corresponding components. Other metals were okay, so we'll monitor copper closely next time. The viscosity was 5W/30,and no gas, moisture, or coolant was found. Low insolubles show good oil filtration and no combustion issues. Low silicon shows good air filtration. Hopefully copper will drop next time. It may be left over from when the engine was new. Al 3 Chromium 0 Iron 6 Copper 27 Lead 1 Tin 0 Moly 35 Nickel 1 Manganese 1 Silver 1 Titanium 0 Boron 27 Silicon 11 Sodium 5 Calcium 2797 Magnesium 14 Phosphorous 594 Zinc 681 SUS Visc: 58.9 cST Visc: 9.90 Flashpoint: 375 Antifreeze: 0 Water: 0 Insolubles: .3% No TBN or TAN ran. This engine has had Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 since 2500 miles, and a PureOne oil filter as well. So there's no residual oils left. Changes have been every 3000-3500 miles, so I'd think break-in was out. The copper is odd to me. Universal averages are 5. Silicon is a tad higher than I'd like to see....I imagine it'll come down with more miles on the filter and engine. I'll clean that filter once every 25-30k most likely. I have no idea what the trace of 1 PPM of Silver could mean, but I do have longevity concerns with the turbos in these cars. So even that trace makes me unhappy. Otherwise, the oil seems to pass muster. I think I'm going to switch to RTS 5w40 eventually. I'd really love to hear some thoughts on the copper. Joe
 

JoeFromPA

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One thing to add: The oil was run from ~Feb 1st through Mid March. During this time, there was a ton of cold starts. But what I define as cold is from 15 degrees to 30 degrees fahrenheit. The engine would idle on those mornings for about ~2-3 minutes on average before being driven. I still don't think that would increase copper that much, but figured I'd mention it. No fuel additives were used.
 
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Upstate NY
From OAI testing: My sample has a high copper number. Where is it coming from? A: If only the copper is high, but no other metals such as lead, tin, or aluminum are elevated, it is mostly an oxide of copper from the oil cooler. As the oil cooler is exposed to the heat from the engine oil, it can sometimes oxidize the copper, which will show up in the analysis report. This is considered a normal condition and no corrective action is required. This process usually will taper off or stop occurring over time. Does your car have a oil cooler?
 

JoeFromPA

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Edit: I'm not 100% sure. The only thing I could find is that there may be a coolant-aided oil cooler directly above the oil filter. Nonetheless, I can't figure out why my oil cooler would be more prone to oxidizing than the universal averages for this engine, but it's a good point IF there is one....
 
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Upstate NY
I use PP in my 94 Camry but run it 7500 miles. I think you are not getting your money's worth from PP if you only go 3600 miles (and its not very green). I am not familiar with an AVO filter. The silicon is a tad high for 3600 miles. How about a factory filter or better yet a Amsoil Ea air filter. Consider using OAI labs as they give you TBN which I think is critical. I think Blackstone charges extra. If you do not have an oil cooler, then consider contacting Terry to go over your analysis results.
 
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Subaru recommends OCI of 3750 miles on some engines. I am not sure if his engine is affected by this recommendation. Even Amsoil doesn't recommend extended interval on some engine if there is a known problem with the engine.
 
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Upstate NY
 Originally Posted By: Donald
From OAI testing: My sample has a high copper number. Where is it coming from? A: If only the copper is high, but no other metals such as lead, tin, or aluminum are elevated, it is mostly an oxide of copper from the oil cooler. As the oil cooler is exposed to the heat from the engine oil, it can sometimes oxidize the copper, which will show up in the analysis report. This is considered a normal condition and no corrective action is required. This process usually will taper off or stop occurring over time. Does your car have a oil cooler?
I would give very little credence to universal averages from Blackstone.
 
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Mojave Desert, CA
I'm going to guess that Joe's keeping to the factory recommended OCI for warranty purposes and not concerned with TBN, etc. because he knows that he's not even getting close to wearing TBN down (it would probably come back around a 6 or so). Since his OCIs are so frequent and copper isn't THAT high I'd run another sample at the next change and see if there's a trend since the other wear metals look just fine. Regarding universal averages, are you sure Blackstone knows you've got the blown version of the Legacy and not the NA? Joe has postulated that Blackstone might be making this mistake regarding the K20Z3 in the Civic Si and that they might not be differentiating between it and the earlier K20Ax series motor. Could be a similar situation here.
 
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 Originally Posted By: Donald
I use PP in my 94 Camry but run it 7500 miles. I think you are not getting your money's worth from PP if you only go 3600 miles (and its not very green). I am not familiar with an AVO filter. The silicon is a tad high for 3600 miles. How about a factory filter or better yet a Amsoil Ea air filter. Consider using OAI labs as they give you TBN which I think is critical. I think Blackstone charges extra. If you do not have an oil cooler, then consider contacting Terry to go over your analysis results.
A 94 NA Camry is a little different than a 2.5 Turbo still under warranty \:\!
 
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NJ
Yes, all turbo Subaru's have an oil cooler. From what I recall in reading Subaru 2.5L comparisons, Blackstone's universal averages are the same regardless if it's a 170 hp n/a Legacy or 305hp STI. I believe there are some recent PP uoa's posted from other subie turbos. Have you searched for them? Just go ahead and put in the RTS. -Dennis
 
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JoeFromPA

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PA
 Originally Posted By: Donald
I use PP in my 94 Camry but run it 7500 miles. I think you are not getting your money's worth from PP if you only go 3600 miles (and its not very green). I am not familiar with an AVO filter. The silicon is a tad high for 3600 miles. How about a factory filter or better yet a Amsoil Ea air filter. Consider using OAI labs as they give you TBN which I think is critical. I think Blackstone charges extra. If you do not have an oil cooler, then consider contacting Terry to go over your analysis results.
Hey Donald, I'm getting my money's worth because it's what I want to run, for how long I want to run it. As others have pointed out, and as it says in my signature, I am running PP 5w30 on this rig for this interval due to warranty concerns. On my Civic SI, I run SSO 0w30 for 15+k miles at a time....me likey extended intervals :) The AVO Panel filter is like many others....it's dry, washable with soap and water, and fairly durable construction. My fear was that it wasn't filtering well. I think the Silicon (especially given the PA road conditions) of 11 represents that it's filtering OK for now, but I'll be keeping an eye on it. Blackstone costs me $25 (including shipping and the sampling container) for this report. I don't care about TBN for this level of interval, and I like blackstone. They are kind of the popular kid that doesn't really excel at anything so everyone picks on them. But I like them :) I won't use Terry Dyson for this. I'm not tuning, I'm not trying something unique, and my $100 is precious to me. But if I ever do any of those things (tune or do something unique), I think I'll try him out. OrdnanceMarine - You hit my nail on the head :) BlueSubie - I've got about 3 changes worth of PP left in my basement, maybe I'll save those for winter or something. I don't know. I will switch to RTS when the time comes. Good to know about the oil cooler. In that case, overall I'm comfortable. I bet the Copper will trend downwards nicely over the next 15-20k. It did surprise me though. Joe
 
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25,155
Location
Upstate NY
With respect to your elevated silicon, on two of my vehicles (94 Camry and 93 Suburban) I had elevated silicon, on the Camry I found a air temp sender had popped out of the filter box leaving maybe a 1/3" hole and on the Suburban I found a gasket missing where a spacer connects to the TBI. However fixing those helped a little but not as much as I had hoped. I kept looking for cracks in the air intake, loose clamps but never found anything. I now use WIX air filters (Amsoil Ea are too pricey for me) and rub some silicone grease on the sealing gasket.
 

JoeFromPA

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PA
I guess my question is: Why do you consider 11 PPM Silicon high in a 4.2 quart sump after 3600 miles of driving during wintery conditions on a vehicle with a total of 16500-20100 miles on it during this OCI? If this was a 5.5 quart sump, the Silicon would've been 8.36 PPM. Just for comparisons sake. I'd like to see it at 4-5, but I don't consider it high justyet. Also, it's spot on with Blackstone's universal average....for what it's worth. A note on this analysis that I completely forgot: I opened up the oil drain and it was pouring out, so I waited for it to slow a tad to signify the volume was decreasing. It literally went from POURING out to a steady trickle, with no in between. So I imagine I got some of the last of the drain. I have no idea what, if any, affect that would've had on silicon or copper, but I figured it was worth mentioning. Joe
 
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Mojave Desert, CA
 Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
A note on this analysis that I completely forgot: I opened up the oil drain and it was pouring out, so I waited for it to slow a tad to signify the volume was decreasing. It literally went from POURING out to a steady trickle, with no in between. So I imagine I got some of the last of the drain. I have no idea what, if any, affect that would've had on silicon or copper, but I figured it was worth mentioning. Joe
Joe, I bet it wouldn't have made a bit of difference in your case. Brand new engine + frequent oil changes + PP (excellent dispersant properties) = little to no sediment at the bottom of the pan to skew your sample.
 
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Illinois
The AVO Panel filter is like many others....it's dry, washable with soap and water, and fairly durable construction. My fear was that it wasn't filtering well. I think the Silicon (especially given the PA road conditions) of 11 represents that it's filtering OK for now, but I'll be keeping an eye on it. Joe [/quote] Hi Joe. I used the AVO panel filter in my 08 WRX (same engine as in your Legacy GT) for a few months and when I first removed the filter to clean it, I noticed some dirt on the "clean" side of the air box and around the bottom edges where the two halves of the box come together. Additionally, I noticed some gaps around the seam of the air box and I could actually see the top part of the filter when the box was latched. I believe the stock air filter has a fuzzy edge that somehow fills these gaps. I'm currently using a Cosworth filter, which has more substantial filter media than the AVO, and I sealed the gaps in the air box with foam weather stripping tape.
 
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Idaho
 Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
.........I think the Silicon (especially given the PA road conditions) of 11 represents that it's filtering OK for now, but I'll be keeping an eye on it...... Joe
I agree 11 ppm Si is nothing to be concerned about. Some of it comes with new oil, some of it comes off engine parts. My most recent UOA for a '05 LGT showed 10 ppm with 2400 miles on PP 5W30, and an OEM air filter.
 
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