'07 Tacoma V6 - M1-EP 5W-30 - 10,322 Miles/13 months. High Fe/Cr

Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
I've owned this truck since buying it new in June 2007, and I've done every oil change myself, always using some flavor of Mobil 1. Standard M1 at first, then the old Truck & SUV formula for a while, then, starting at around 75,000 miles or so, I've always used the Extended Performance variety. Filters have varied between Fram ToughGuard and ExtraGuard and Purolator Pure One in the beginning, to Bosch, and, in the last few years, almost exclusively Fram Ultra. The truck now has >212,000 miles. This engine has always run fantastically for me. I can't tell a difference from when it was new, and it's never needed any work. In fact, the truck has been ultra-reliable. The only work I've had to do has been u-joints (replaced all 3 when a bearing in the aft u-joint started squeaking at around 80K or so) and, recently, rear wheel bearings and axle seals, changed when the ABS/Brake warning lamps illuminated, due to oil leaking past the LH rear axle seal and into the wheel bearing housing, contaminating the wheel speed sensor. Other stuff has been very minor - a couple of idler pulleys started making noise, overhead temp/compass display had a solder joint open up and had to be re-soldered (common issue with these trucks), center console lid latch broke, etc. Still on original alternator, starter, all pumps, and the A/C still blows cold. It's never used any oil between changes, hence, my reluctance to change type/viscosity of oil. However, I've been a little concerned for the last couple of years about the increased levels of iron and chromium showing. It has me wondering about the potential cause, and if there's something I can do to cut down on wear. Blackstone says increased iron and chromium points to cylinder wear - iron being cylinders and chromium being rings. I like the even 10,000-mile intervals. I really don't want to shorten OCI. On the last couple of OCIs, time has been 12 or 13 months to get to those mileages because I bought a WRX in March 2016 and was driving that a lot instead of the truck. But, I just sold the WRX, and the Taco is now my only vehicle, so, it won't be taking me nearly as long to rack up 10,000 miles. Probably 6 months or less. My commute is 36 miles, round-trip, 4-5 days per week, which is almost all highway. I do drive pretty fast - average of 80-85 mph, probably. And, starting last month, I started taking the truck on some longer out-of-town trips that will rack up several hundred miles, at least, possibly even 1000 or more, per occasion. So, it will be interesting to see what the next UOA looks like. You'll notice that there was some fuel in the oil on this last run. That's because I do about an hour of idling per week as I sit in my truck and eat breakfast before going into work every morning. But, like I said, the higher iron and chromium numbers have me considering maybe trying a stouter oil next time. Maybe if I stick with M1, I'll just go with the 0W-40 variety and hope it does a better job of cylinder lubrication. Suggestions? Thoughts? Comments? Thanks guys.
Code
Miles on oil:           10,322         12,236       10,996         10,158        7507       
Time on oil:            13 months      12 months    <4 months      6 months      5 months
Miles on unit:          209,014        189,230      176,994        114,645       104,487
Sample Date:            23 March 2019  26 Jan 2017  27 March 2016  28 June 2013  21 Dec 2012 
Make Up Oil Added:      0 qts          0 qts        0 qts          0 qts         0 qts

Aluminum:               7              9            4              6             4
Chromium:               2              2            0              1             1 
Iron:                   42             61           18             24            21
Copper:                 2              5            1              2             2
Lead:                   0              0            0              2             3
Tin:                    0              0            0              3             2
Molybdenum:             67             76           68             77            78
Nickel:                 0              0            2              0             0
Manganese:              2              2            1              2             1 
Silver:                 0              0            0              0             0
Titanium:               0              0            0              0             0
Potassium:              5              2            0              2             3 
Boron:                  28             28           25             33            28
Silicon:                19             23           16             16            16
Sodium:                 18             10           5              12            10
Calcium:                965            1003         1022           1085          1048
Magnesium:              639            744          891            782           714 
Phosphorus:             630            683          660            695           685 
Zinc:                   704            803          721            803           835
Barium:                 0              0            0              0             0

SUS Viscosity @ 210*F:  57.9           60.3         62.1           55.4          56.3
cSt Viscosity @ 100*C:  9.62           10.31        10.8           8.9           9.16
Flashpoint in *F:       355            400          390            405           390
Fuel %:                 1.5            <0.5         <0.5           <0.5          <0.5
Antifreeze %:           0              0            0              0             0
Water %:                0              0            0              0             0
Insolubles %:           0.4            0.3          0.2            0.5           0.3
TBN:                                   1.9                         1.3           2.5 
Blackstone Comments: 23 March 2019: Aluminum, chrome, and iron are still on the high side, but at least aluminum is lower this time and iron is lower thanks to the shorter run. This engine is still wearing more at the rings and steel parts than it was in years past, so something has changed, but, at least if this is a problem, it's not getting worse in a hurry. Fuel is present, but 1.5% is just from normal use and not a fuel system problem. Stay at 10,000 miles on the oil for next time. That's give us a better idea of how chrome and iron are trending. 26 Jan 2017: This run really wasn't that much longer than past samples, so we're surprised to see wear metals increase so much. Aluminum shows piston and/or bearing wear and chrome shows a little extra ring wear. Iron is from steel parts like cylinders and rotating shafts. This could be piston scuffing, but we also can't rule out bearing wear or valve train wear. Did the engine see any harder use or perhaps get new parts installed recently? The TBN read 1.9 showing active additive left, but we suggest cutting the interval to 7,500 miles and resample to monitor. 30 March 2016: The engine has really been racking up the miles since we last saw it in 2013, but there's nothing wrong with that. Wear metals are in great shape once again compared to universal averages, which show typical wear for this type of engine after around 5,700 miles on the oil. The viscosity is at the thick end of the 5W/30 range, but that's fine. It was a little thin back in 2013 and that didn't hurt anything either. Low insolubles and silicon show excellent oil and air filtration and there's no coolant or excess fuel. Try 13,000 miles on the next oil and just check back. 18 July 2013: Iron increased a little with this longer oil change interval, but rest assured, that's a normal finding. Iron should increase with longer oil runs, since it's the only metal that tracks with time on the oil and other operational factors. Longer oil runs, harder use? More iron. The opposite is also true. As long as other metals are holding pretty steady (within a few ppm) the iron isn't making the oil abrasive, so you know you can run longer. You've not hit that tipping point yet, so add 1,000 miles to your next run. The low viscosity is harmless, and the TBN is still hanging on at 1.3. 21 December 2012: After this 7,507-mile oil run, this sample compares well with universal averages, which show typical wear for this kind of engine after about 5,500 miles on the oil. Your engine wear is right in line with averages, even after a longer run, and that's just what we like to see. Toyota engines wear well, and yours is no different. The TBN read 2.5, so there was plenty of active additive to go longer. Try 9,500 miles next and check back to establish trends for your Tacoma. Nice run.
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
I just logged in to the forum with my iPhone, and noticed that the "CODE" block which we're encouraged to use in posting UOA numbers, while displaying just fine on a laptop or desktop, does not display correctly on my phone, on the mobile version of the site. There also doesn't seem to be an option to view the full desktop site on my phone, like there is on other forums I'm on. That's annoying.
 
Messages
15,056
Location
Canada
Silicon, insolubles, and fuel are somewhat high for the miles, so they would seem to be combining and causing higher wear. Were it me, I'd go with a thicker oil and shorter intervals to see if you can get the numbers down. I'd also check the air filter just to make sure it is sealing well.
 
Messages
4,672
Location
MN
Good choice of Fram Ultra & M1 EP 5w30, about the best that can be done. Silicon is normally about 8 ppm from the normal anti-foam additive in the oil, so that leaves only 11 ppm sneaking past the air filter from sand dust. Not bad, but, sure maybe check how well sealed your air path is. You're doing everything right. ....200,000 miles is starting to look like a lot. ... I would try 10,000 miles of Valvoline Premium Blue Restore 10w30 this summer out of desperation to try to get the rings freed up, hoping they will stop wearing as much (the chromium you know). https://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/valvoline-877377/premium-blue-restore-10w30-gallon-p-vvl-877377 Your 0w40 plan could also work, more ZDDP there at least.
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Originally Posted by addyguy
Silicon, insolubles, and fuel are somewhat high for the miles, so they would seem to be combining and causing higher wear. Were it me, I'd go with a thicker oil and shorter intervals to see if you can get the numbers down. I'd also check the air filter just to make sure it is sealing well.
Good point about the higher silicon. I looked at a couple of other UOAs with similar mileage, and it does appear that mine has a bit more silicon present. I'll check the air filter and maybe change it more often. I have to admit it's been one of those "when I think about it" maintenance items. I should go back and look at my logbook and see when the last couple of times I did it were.
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Good choice of Fram Ultra & M1 EP 5w30, about the best that can be done. Silicon is normally about 8 ppm from the normal anti-foam additive in the oil, so that leaves only 11 ppm sneaking past the air filter from sand dust. Not bad, but, sure maybe check how well sealed your air path is. You're doing everything right. ....200,000 miles is starting to look like a lot. ... I would try 10,000 miles of Valvoline Premium Blue Restore 10w30 this summer out of desperation to try to get the rings freed up, hoping they will stop wearing as much (the chromium you know). https://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/valvoline-877377/premium-blue-restore-10w30-gallon-p-vvl-877377 Your 0w40 plan could also work, more ZDDP there at least.
Thanks for your comments. I'll probably just roll with the M1-EP 5W-30 that's in there, until 10K, get another UOA at that time for more data points, and go with M1 0W-40 for the next OCI. Then sample again to check result. So, I understand that silicone is used for anti-foam. Does silicone show up as silicon in UOA?
 
Messages
2,517
Location
Deep in the heart of Jersey
Lets see, 12 year old car with 212,000 miles on it, doesn't use any oil between changes, you've spent alot on UOI'S, runs good, what should you do differently? NOTHING!!!! Run it til the wheels turn square. More UOI'S won't tell you anything useful at this stage of the game.,,,
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Originally Posted by BigCahuna
Lets see, 12 year old car with 212,000 miles on it, doesn't use any oil between changes, you've spent alot on UOI'S, runs good, what should you do differently? NOTHING!!!! Run it til the wheels turn square. More UOI'S won't tell you anything useful at this stage of the game.,,,
Yeah, like I said, the service I've gotten has had me reluctant to change anything. But, if a different oil would help cut down on the rear metals, I'd do it. As far as UOAs, they're just fun and interesting.
 
Messages
4,672
Location
MN
Originally Posted by john_pifer
So, I understand that silicone is used for anti-foam. Does silicone show up as silicon in UOA?
"Silicon", no 'e', is one element inside silicone rubber compounds. The UOA & VOA shows types of atoms, which are elements in the periodic table. I learned a new one the other day: Ruthenium, used in spark plugs these days apparently. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...ium-vs-ruthenium-spark-plugs#Post5088294
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Attached PDF of latest UOA for the mobile users, since the Codeblock in which I uploaded the data does not show correctly on a phone.
 

Attachments

  • 0 bytes · Views: 27
Last edited:
Messages
1,947
Location
South Central PA (Fulton Co)
Thanks for posting this! I'm glad you mentioned you idle time as I idle about 20 minutes a day sitting in the parking lot at work as well, seems they might fuel dilute a little bit. I might have to stick with my 5K intervals I like. I was going to go with Edge 0w40 like I run in the GTI just to keep a smaller stock of oil. Hopefully mine runs as well as yours at 200K, but at 131K it feels like new. Funny you mentioned the overhead temp/compass, I just repaired the solder joints in mine the other day. I did flush the nasty power steering fluid the other day as well, that was an adventure in itself!
 
Messages
3,275
Location
On another site
Appreciate the phone friendly report (even though usually on computer)...thinking that per-mile iron has come down and perhaps there was simply a spike in the previous oil change due to conditions. Odd that M1 has been used all along but is just now showing more iron. Any chance the formulation changed? Otherwise, I'd do the same interval, same oil, and try to cut down on the idling time to compare. Or perhaps try another oil brand? I know M1 (though very good) has a reputation for making more iron. hide
 
Messages
658
Location
CA
OP should probably reduce his OCI to < 6000 and see where that puts him. Tacoma's and Mobil1 are a very, very popular combination. Millions upon millions of miles of zero issues or undue wear.... Injectors freezing up can cause additional fuel dilution issues. Black stone fuel dilution testing strikes again. Your flash point looks pretty low, probably more than 1.5%. If the reduced OCI doesn't help, I'd look at your injectors.
Originally Posted by JLTD
Appreciate the phone friendly report (even though usually on computer)...thinking that per-mile iron has come down and perhaps there was simply a spike in the previous oil change due to conditions. Odd that M1 has been used all along but is just now showing more iron. Any chance the formulation changed? Otherwise, I'd do the same interval, same oil, and try to cut down on the idling time to compare. Or perhaps try another oil brand? I know M1 (though very good) has a reputation for making more iron. hide
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Originally Posted by Delta
Thanks for posting this! I'm glad you mentioned you idle time as I idle about 20 minutes a day sitting in the parking lot at work as well, seems they might fuel dilute a little bit. I might have to stick with my 5K intervals I like. I was going to go with Edge 0w40 like I run in the GTI just to keep a smaller stock of oil. Hopefully mine runs as well as yours at 200K, but at 131K it feels like new. Funny you mentioned the overhead temp/compass, I just repaired the solder joints in mine the other day. I did flush the nasty power steering fluid the other day as well, that was an adventure in itself!
Interesting that you have a Tacoma and a GTI. I like sport compacts myself. Had a 2016 WRX until recently. I'd be interested to know how that Edge 0W-40 works out for you. Yeah, that solder joint broke way back in 2011. Re: Power Steering: I just suck what's in the reservoir out from time to time and put fresh in.
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Originally Posted by 4WD
M1 10w30 HM in the summer would be thicker and stable …
Yeah, wouldn't want something that thick in winter. I might have given it a try if I hadn't just changed the oil. It'll be September or so, probably, before I change it again. Probably try M1 0W-40.
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Originally Posted by JLTD
Appreciate the phone friendly report (even though usually on computer)...thinking that per-mile iron has come down and perhaps there was simply a spike in the previous oil change due to conditions. Odd that M1 has been used all along but is just now showing more iron. Any chance the formulation changed? Otherwise, I'd do the same interval, same oil, and try to cut down on the idling time to compare. Or perhaps try another oil brand? I know M1 (though very good) has a reputation for making more iron. hide
I've tried to think of a correlation for the increased iron, and I can't. I doubt the formulation has changed that much. Idling time is probably not going to get cut down. I eat breakfast in the truck every morning and it's usually either too hot or too cold not to run the engine. I'll finish out this 10K OCI of M1-EP 5W-30, get another UOA, then go with M1 0W-40 for the next 10K run, get another UOA and see where it stands. If those metals are still high after the M1 0W-40, I'm not afraid to try another brand. At that point I might try something like PPPP, as I had good service out of that oil for 3 years in my 2016 WRX, which should be much harder on oil than a Tacoma. If nothing else, it'll be a fun experiment.
 
Messages
4,672
Location
MN
Originally Posted by john_pifer
I've tried to think of a correlation for the increased iron, and I can't. I doubt the formulation has changed that much.
Your oil, or any typical oil, has nothing to do with this. As evidenced by the higher chromium & iron, the ring-cylinder interface could be misaligned dynamically. Carbon gunked up ringlands prevent the rings from twisting properly. This happens a lot on some Toyota 4-cylinders, and really any engine like yours too. Clean those ringlands out and hope the wear so far hasn't deformed the ring faces too much. Valvoline Premium Blue Restore is the only thing I've found that dissolves out the carbon in there, or tear down the engine & get the black off the pistons. [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
 

john_pifer

Thread starter
Messages
3,632
Location
Nashville, TN via Memphis
Originally Posted by oil_film_movies
Originally Posted by john_pifer
I've tried to think of a correlation for the increased iron, and I can't. I doubt the formulation has changed that much.
Your oil, or any typical oil, has nothing to do with this. As evidenced by the higher chromium & iron, the ring-cylinder interface could be misaligned dynamically. Carbon gunked up ringlands prevent the rings from twisting properly. This happens a lot on some Toyota 4-cylinders, and really any engine like yours too. Clean those ringlands out and hope the wear so far hasn't deformed the ring faces too much. Valvoline Premium Blue Restore is the only thing I've found that dissolves out the carbon in there, or tear down the engine & get the black off the pistons. [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Interesting hypothesis! Few questions: 1. What about the fact that this engine has only ever had Mobil 1? Shouldn't it have kept the ringlands clean? 2. Assuming I tried your idea... If this was your truck, what kind of OCIs would you run with this Valvoline Premium Blue Restore, with the goal of freeing up the rings? 3. How did you hear about this oil? Have you used it or known anyone who did? What about to free up rings? Did it work?
 
Top